Is The Best 1-2-3 Halladay, Hamels and Lee?
Okay, so now that I've filled your article-title-that-rhymes quota for the day, let's actually dig into this question a little bit. People seem to be pretty comfortable these days with the idea that the Philadelphia Phillies have the best three-pitcher combination of any team in baseball at the top of their rotation in Roy Halladay, Cole Hamels and Cliff Lee.
The funny thing, though, is that I've never really seen anyone investigate whether that's actually the case, as well as whether the gap between them and everyone else is as large as everyone perceives it to be. Sure, all three of those guy are putting up fantastic numbers. But the Angels have a few guys going bonkers, too. Those rascally Giants have a habit of tossing good pitchers on the mound, as well. I'm not so sure that we're looking at a league of rotations that can accurately be described as, "the Phillies at the top, and then everyone else."
First, let's look at the numbers that most people seem to be looking at: wins, losses and ERA. Here are those numbers for the Philly Big 3 and the other elite pitching trios in the game.
| Trio | W-L | ERA |
| Halladay-Hamels-Lee | 39-17 | 2.66 |
| Weaver-Haren-E. Santana | 34-19 | 2.59 |
| Lincecum-Cain-Bumgarner | 25-28 | 3.11 |
| Price-Shields-Hellickson | 29-26 | 3.31 |
| Hernandez-Pineda-Vargas | 22-29 | 3.38 |
The first thing you'll notice is that wins and losses are essentially worthless. The second thing you'll notice is that, yes, the Phillies are clearly in some special company. But probably the most important thing you'll notice is that the Phillies aren't alone in having this kind of dominance in their rotation. In terms of allowing runs, Halladay-Hamels-Lee hasn't even been the best pitching threesome in the game this season.
Yet, nobody is even considering the possibility that the Phillies don't have the best 1-2-3 punch of any pitching rotation in the game. I mean, it's Halladay-Hamels-Lee. Three guys that have pitched at the game's highest level, and then asked where the stairs are. We're talking about Cy Young Awards, World Series MVP trophies and hundreds of millions of dollars, all completely well-deserved.
And all of that kind of nudges toward my point. Barring some sort of serious injury to the likes of Halladay, Hamels or Lee, what possibly could've happened this season to convince the public that those three don't comprise the premier pitching trio in the game? I mean, the Angels are boasting three pitchers; one has a 1.78 ERA and 14 wins, one has a 2.81 ERA and the best strikeout-to-walk ratio in the AL, and one has a 3.21 ERA and recently threw a no-hitter. And yet, nobody is even wondering if this incredibly dominant trio is the most dominant trio in the game. I mean, they're just not Halladay-Hamels-Lee.
Which brings us to the next question, "Can the Angels trio sustain this?"
Because that's realistically the biggest difference between the two threesomes right now. When Halladay, Hamels and Lee are absolutely dominating, it makes sense. They're just doing what they do, what we've seen them do before. But Jered Weaver, Dan Haren and Ervin Santana? Sure, we've seen them all be very good before, but we've never really seen them be particularly great. None of them felt like ace pitchers until Weaver's breakout last season.
And if you disagree about that perception with Haren, okay, but I think he would've fetched more in trade for Arizona if other teams actually viewed him as an elite guy. I mean, look at what the Rockies got for Jimenez. The difference in price tag doesn't explain away how one guy fetches Skaggs-Corbin-Saunders and the other fetches Pomeranz-White-Gardner.
So let's take a look at their peripheral numbers- maybe the Angels trio can keep up when it comes to ERA, but once we adjust everything to try to strip away luck, will they still stack up?
| Trio | FIP | xFIP | SIERA |
| Halladay-Hamels-Lee | 2.52 | 2.72 | 2.69 |
| Weaver-Haren-E. Santana | 2.96 | 3.45 | 3.34 |
And alas, this is why the Phillies trio is so exciting. When the Angels trio is putting up that ridiculously low ERA, all of the current ERA estimators out there essentially are in agreement that they won't be able to keep this up. But with Halladay-Hamels-Lee, it's all legit.
For the past few months, it's felt like the Angels and Phillies have been throwing ace pitchers out there three out of every five days. I'm guessing that their opponents have felt pretty much the same way. There's that one little difference, though: with the Angels, it only feels like they've had three aces; Philadelphia's are all quite real, though.
And that, my friends, explains why Halladay-Hamels-Lee is the ultimate one-two-three.
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Yeah,but...
If you go WORLEY-Halladay-Hamels, the Phils have a starter threesome going 36-11 with a 2.49 ERA…
by Andrew Milner on Aug 9, 2011 1:22 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This is true
If we go five deep, the Phillies are blowing everyone out of the water.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score and a writer for MLB Daily Dish.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Aug 9, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
The Phillies have four SP with 15+ starts and an ERA+ of 131 or higher. If Worley qualifies for the ERA title, they will become only the third team in the live-ball era to have four SP who qualify for the title and have an ERA+ > 130. As impressive as the Braves starters were in the 90s, they only hit that one time, in 1997 (Glavine/Maddux/Neagle/Smoltz). The only other live-ball team to accomplish this was th ’42 Tigers.
There are a few top-heavy rotations in baseball, but I don’t think anything comes close to Philadelphia right now. They’re not just the best now, they’re one of the few best rotations of the last century.
Yeah, he won't. They're still in special company, though.
Hamels, Lee and Halladay are all on pace to post 5.5+ wins above replacement this year.
Only one team has had three 5.5+ WAR pitchers in a single season since 1925, and that’s the Braves with Glavine-Smoltz-Maddux in 1996.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score and a writer for MLB Daily Dish.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Aug 9, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
What's the difference?
“The difference in price tag doesn’t explain away how one guy fetches Skaggs-Corbin-Saunders and the other fetches Pomeranz-White-Gardner.”
Skaggs is 19, pitched in A+ to AA this year, and 158 strikeouts to 43 walks in 125 innings.
Pomeranz is 3 years older, pitched at the same levels, and has a 112-38 ratio in 91 innings. Skaggs has pitched in tougher hitters leagues.
Impossible to tell which one is going to have the better MLB career. But the idea that what the Angels gave up was clearly inferior to what the Indians gave up is incorrect.
"That boy is our last hope" - Obi Wan Scioscia, as Francisco Rodriguez left for the Mets. "No, there is another" - Yoda Reagins.
I'm talking about their values at the time
BA just ranked Pomeranz as the No. 15 prospect in the game. Last year, when BA ranked their midseason top-50, Skaggs didn’t even make the list.
In terms of value at the time of the deal, Pomeranz/White are significantly more highly regarded than Skaggs/Corbin were.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score and a writer for MLB Daily Dish.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Aug 9, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Salary had a bit to do with it as well
Ubaldo has the most nutty team friendly contract for a front line starter in history. Haren, although not making an absurd amount at all, was making more than a low payroll team looking to rebuild wanted to keep paying. That skewed the initial returns a bit.
Does FIP scale for both leauges?
I mean its got to be harder to strike out a DH than a pitcher, and pitchers definitely will cause fewer walks and not hit many HR’s. Wouldn’t this kinda scale FIP unfairly upwards for an AL pitcher?
Ogando, Harrison and Wilson
They all have a better ERA than the average of the Seattle trio, and a 3.11 ERA overall, same as the Giants trio (despite pitching half their games in one of the best hitter’s parks in baseball, and having to face the DH).
Definitely a good trio.
However, a third of their total starts have come against Seattle, Oakland, the Angels, Minnesota, and Houston. 22 starts against five of the worst offenses in the game.
The Braves' top 3
of Hanson, Jurrjens, and Hudson should be in this discussion as well. They’ve been really good.
Hanson, JJ and Huddy
are right there at 35-18 with a 3.13. However, the FIP doesn’t quite stack up. I didn’t do the math, but at 3.66, 3.68 and 3.30 respectively (3.21, 3.93 and 3.41 xFIP) the Braves’ trio falls behind. Ignoring the stat, though, Hudson and Jurrjens (more so this season) both pitch to contact. Both are capable of K’s but it’s not their style. Locating pitches and inducing weak contact is how they’ve been successful. I’d go to war with these three any day of the week.
Fangraphs
Shows Phillies having a combined 15.9 WAR, and the Angels with 13.4, FWIW. Good article, though, I hadn’t realized how close these two staffs are…
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." - Bear Bryant
The problem with FIP
Is that it tries to do away with teams built to take advantage of a certain approach. If a team has a great defense, like the Angels do, why are the pitching performances penalized? I know it’s not very sabermetric of me, but pitchers don’t pitch in a vacuum. There are eight other guys on the field that do a lot to help, from making a tough play to ending an inning sooner.
R.I.P. Nick Adenhart - Always an Angel
But why should the pitcher get credit for what the defense does?
The entire claim of the DIPS theory is that pitchers have no control of the ball once it leaves a hitter’s bat. Over time, we’ve seen that this isn’t quite true, as pitchers who fit certain profiles will tend to give up more or less home runs (or a different batted ball distribution) than other pitchers.
As you say, there are eight other guys on the field. But we’re not talking about them, we’re taking about the pitcher. FIP tries to strip away that influence, so when we talk about a pitcher’s performance, that’s really the only thing we’re talking about.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score and a writer for MLB Daily Dish.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Aug 10, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
What about pitch selection, though?
Catcher might call for the strikeout pitch rather than one that’ll get the batter to pop out/ground out, and then the pitcher has to execute.
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by Andrew Martin on Aug 11, 2011 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I mean, FIP isn't perfect
But how could you ever possibly gauge that without knowing what the catcher wants to do versus the pitcher, data that we’ll probably never have?
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score and a writer for MLB Daily Dish.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Aug 11, 2011 7:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think this post has merit, but let's focus on what we're actually asking:
1. Which team has the best 1-2-3?
(or)
2. Which team has the best pitching/defense combo?
They are separate questions. To your point, I think #2 is more relevant in terms of projection, while #1 is more relevant in terms of trade value.
Managing Editor at Beyond the Box Score and MLB Daily Dish. Follow me @justinbopp
by Justin Bopp on Aug 11, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, and FIP has never sought to answer the second question
It has merely purported to be a pitcher metric, not an overall run prevention metric.
Wouldn’t the best pitcher/defense combination simply be the team with the least runs allowed?
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score and a writer for MLB Daily Dish.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Aug 11, 2011 7:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Assuming we're adjusting for park effects, yes.
Managing Editor at Beyond the Box Score and MLB Daily Dish. Follow me @justinbopp
by Justin Bopp on Aug 11, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions

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