Who's The Best 1-2 Punch in Baseball?
by Satchel Price on Apr 19, 2011 1:00 PM EDT
in Player Profiles
Email
PrintOver at the SweetSpot Blog on ESPN.com, Steve Berthiaume asked this question a couple days ago. He concluded that the Rockies boast the best duo in the game in shortstop Troy Tulowitzki and left fielder Carlos Gonzalez.
There's a poll within the article, and apparently the readers came to the same conclusion: 74% of the votes were in favor of Tulo and CarGo. Of the other options, Milwaukee's Fielder-Braun, St. Louis' Pujols-Holliday, Texas' Hamilton-Cruz and Cincinnati's Votto-Bruce, only Pujols and Holliday could muster more than five percent of the votes.
Because I think that we have some pretty smart people reading this site, I'm curious to see what all of you think on the topic. Do you agree with Berthiaume and the SweetSpot readers? Or do you think that they're overrating Gonzalez somewhat (hard to disagree with the whole "Tulo rules" thing)?
I'll outline the options below the jump, and leave it to you guys to decide. I think they left out some pretty good alternatives, too, so I'll give you guys my top ten below. They're in the order of combined WAR over the past three years.
1) Albert Pujols and Matt Holliday - St. Louis - 2008-2010 combined WAR: 43.5
2) Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau - Minnesota - 2008-2010 combined WAR: 31.4
3) Ryan Zimmerman and Jayson Werth - Washington - 2008-2010 combined WAR: 31.4
4) Adrian Gonzalez and Dustin Pedroia - Boston - 2008-2010 combined WAR: 30.5
5) Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder - Milwaukee - 2008-2010 combined WAR: 27.3
6) Robinson Cano and Alex Rodriguez - New York (AL) - 2008-2010 combined WAR: 25.3
7)Joey Votto and Jay Bruce - Cincinnati - 2008-2010 combined WAR: 23.8
8) Josh Hamilton and Nelson Cruz - Texas - 2008-2010 combined WAR: 23.3
9) Troy Tulowitzki and Carlos Gonzalez - Colorado - 2008-2010 combined WAR: 22.1
10) Jason Heyward and Brian McCann - Atlanta - 2008-2010 combined WAR: 20.3
37 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Any reason
you went with A-Rod / Cano instead of Teix / A-Rod?
Blogger and Editor, Rational Pastime Blog. Twitter: @RationalPastime.
Teix / A-Rod combined 3-year rWAR: 26.1
Blogger and Editor, Rational Pastime Blog. Twitter: @RationalPastime.
I think that Cano's clearly better than Tex at this point
Tex has been better than Cano, but Cano’s clearly the better player going forward.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 19, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd agree going forward that's likely
But if we’re going to look retrospectively using WAR I’d have to go with Teix-Rodriguez
Blogger and Editor, Rational Pastime Blog. Twitter: @RationalPastime.
Entirely fair.
I was under the impression that this was going forward. Otherwise the question wouldn’t be in present tense, right?
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 19, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I voted Pujols / Holliday
and I’m not sure it’s close.
See Data Differently: Beyond the Box Score | @justinbopp
My designs are now available to print! Check them out.
Not as much as you'd think.
Matt Holliday, quite honestly, is underrated at this point. He’s really freaking good.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 19, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what I'm looking forward to, though?
BOOM!
See Data Differently: Beyond the Box Score | @justinbopp
My designs are now available to print! Check them out.
by Justin Bopp on Apr 19, 2011 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Thats why I voted other.
"We don’t have guys with a long history of being effective in the seventh and eighth innings."
~Trey Hillman, master of understatements.
I think you meant...
FRANCOEUR / CABRERA
That Heyward guy is pretty good.
by another simpsons avatar on Apr 19, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
WAR is a terrible way to measure this.
If you’re attempting to measure the best 1-2 punch, you don’t care about positional adjustments or defense, which is all captured in WAR. Which is why the Red Sox have Gonzalez-Pedroia listed, when their two best hitters are Youkilis and Gonzalez.
You can define it however you want.
But I’d agree that traditionally this has been an offensive question. And that’s how it started for the ESPN article, but then that author headed over to WAR (which was really amusing because he skipped over the whole “why don’t we actually park adjust offensive stats” step.)
Either way, I’m in the “Pujols-Holliday and a lot of others are fighting for second” camp.
Yeah, that's entirely fair
Obviously it depends on whether 1-2 punch means offense or in general, and it’s fair to say that most people would limit this to just offense.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 19, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Why? You'd be introducing a lot of arbitrary bias I'd think
If the point is who is the most productive offensive duo I’d think RAA or wRC is better than going down the WPA route.
Columnist at Beyond the Box Score
agreed
Not “terrible”, but not the best either. One of the cases where something like OPS would be more informative.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/
that
was in response to ThePanda….“reply” button didn’t work the first time.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/
True, if we're defining "Best 1-2 Punch" as "Best 1-2 punch in any lineup"
Then using something like offensive RAA would probably be best. Or just OPS, as you suggest, if we want to keep things simpler.
I’ll get total RAA marks up there in a bit.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 19, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Why no Phillies?
If we go by WAR, you have Utley/Howard at 30.8 since 2008. Those two also have wOBA’s of .390 and .376, not too shabby.
Columnist at Beyond the Box Score
Was mainly thinking about the future
And when you combine their ages, Utley’s injuries and Howard’s Howardness, I felt comfortable leaving them off.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 19, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I usually only consider data from the past three years as predictive
It was just to give some perspective on what they’ve done recently.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 19, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I love Votto/Bruce going forward
but I’m a reasonable man and cannot ignore Pujols/Holliday.
by Charlie Scrabbles on Apr 19, 2011 2:08 PM EDT reply actions
I'm an unreasonable man.
So, I do ignore them.
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
Posey Sandoval is looking pretty good.
"Today I flew the most poorly dressed bad-ass that has ever entered my jet. And he borrowed my pen to do a cross word puzzle." - robotsapproach on Brian Wilson.
.368 and .416 FG wOBA thus far, respectively.
"Today I flew the most poorly dressed bad-ass that has ever entered my jet. And he borrowed my pen to do a cross word puzzle." - robotsapproach on Brian Wilson.
True, that's a beastly duo if Sandoval's bounceback is legit
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 19, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Gordon & Gordon
And it’s not even close…
Dave Gershman - Beyond the Box Score
Penn League Report / Twitter: @Dave_Gershman
Bert & Ernie...
followed by Simon & Schuster, Johnson & Johnson, and…
Let’s be reasonable here. At this very moment, with park factors included, recent track record (over more than simply this past season), it’s incredibly hard to argue in favor of anyone BUT Pujols & Holliday.
"Son, what kind of pitch would you like to miss?"
-The Diz
i know people like to be creative and such things,
and tulowitzki and gonzalez are rising stars, but there really shouldn’t be much disagreement here…
capital letters suck.
ethier and kemp are looking pretty good this year. I’m surprised they haven’t got a mention.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend; few understand." - Leo Durocher
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Beyond the Box Score
Related FanShots on Beyond the Box Score
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Follow us on Twitter!
BTB: @BtBScore
Justin: @justinbopp
Satchel: @SatchelPrice
J-Doug: @RationalPastime
Josh: @garik16
Julian: @giantsnirvana
Bill: @BillPetti
Lucas: @DBITLefty
Jeff: @jeffwzimmerman
Lewis: @LewsOnFirst
