Developing Plate Discipline
I don't think it's an uncommon experience for a fan to wonder about a certain player on their favorite team, "man, that guy has a lot of tools... if only he'd develop some plate discipline!" I know I've had it (*cough* Adam Jones *cough*). How often do those young guys actually improve though? Off to Baseball-Reference's trusty play index for a quick look!
There are 49 players who had a strike-out to walk ratio of at least 4 over the course of their first five seasons (with a minimum of 1,000 plate appearances). Adam Jones is included, as are a number of other current players including youngsters Delmon Young, Kevin Kouzmanoff, and Howie Kendrick, as well as guys on the down swings of their careers like Alfonso Soriano, Jose Guillen, and Pedro Feliz.
The combined totals for the group for their first five seasons include a 4.4% walk rate (BB/PA), a 20.3% strike-out rate (K/PA), and 4.6 K/BB. Looking at the totals for season six and later, there's improvement (6% walk rate, 18.5% strike-out rate, 3.1 K/BB). That makes sense though, as batters who didn't improve would be less likely to rack up significant playing time. Several players, in fact, had no plate appearances in the latter category (including Jones and the other younger active players).Taking only the players who had at least 1,000 after their fifth season as well narrows it down to 25 guys.
The average improvements (not weighted be playing time) aren't all that different from the above; +1.3% walk rate, -1.6% strike-out rate, -1.1 K/BB. That's decent, but not all that great considering the hole these guys started in. A few individuals were able to take more significant steps though.
Sammy Sosa almost doubled his walk rate from 5.6% in his first five seasons to 10.4% thereafter (even if a fair bit of that jump was the result of intentional walks). His strike-out rate barely fell - 24% to 23.1% - but he still cut his K/BB rate from 4.3 to 2.2.
The only guys to do better in that last category were Dante Bichette (4.9 to 2.7, largely due to a large cut in strike-outs; 20% to 14.6%) and Craig Paquette (6.2! to 4.1, also largely due to fewer K's; 24.7% to 19.8%). Several other hitters did a nice job improving their games, but none was able to get his strike-out to walk ratio to 2 (about league average).
On the other end of the spectrum, Shawn Dunston went from rarely walking (4.5%) to never walking (2.7%), so even an almost 3% drop in strike-out rate wasn't enough to cut his K/BB rate (up from 4.4 to 5.4).
This isn't to say that this is what to expect from any one player (it's a basic look at the careers of a small group of guys), or that significant progress is impossible. It does leave me a little less sanguine about Adam Jones' chances of becoming an impact hitter unless he starts elevating the ball enough to hit 30+ home runs though.
The full list of 25:
| Player | First Five Seasons | Seasons Six & After | ||||
| PA | BB% | K% | PA | BB% | K% | |
| Sammy Sosa | 2052 | 5.6% | 24.0% | 7844 | 10.4% | 23.1% |
| Juan Samuel | 2876 | 5.3% | 21.9% | 3788 | 7.6% | 21.5% |
| Mike Matheny | 1278 | 4.5% | 19.7% | 3009 | 6.9% | 18.0% |
| Cory Snyder | 2592 | 5.1% | 24.8% | 1341 | 6.9% | 26.1% |
| Alfonso Soriano | 2150 | 4.2% | 20.0% | 4258 | 6.9% | 20.7% |
| John Kennedy | 1048 | 5.2% | 23.4% | 1276 | 6.8% | 16.9% |
| Matt Williams | 2046 | 5.1% | 21.8% | 5549 | 6.6% | 16.5% |
| Juan Encarnacion | 1798 | 4.3% | 18.9% | 3297 | 6.4% | 15.6% |
| John Shelby | 1015 | 4.4% | 18.2% | 2311 | 5.9% | 21.0% |
| Cito Gaston | 2025 | 5.5% | 22.8% | 1314 | 5.6% | 17.7% |
| Dante Bichette | 1453 | 4.1% | 20.0% | 5402 | 5.5% | 14.6% |
| Garry Templeton | 2764 | 2.9% | 11.7% | 5444 | 5.4% | 14.1% |
| Pedro Feliz | 1178 | 4.2% | 18.3% | 3366 | 5.4% | 13.3% |
| Jose Guillen | 1943 | 4.2% | 17.3% | 4471 | 5.3% | 17.2% |
| Pat Meares | 2077 | 3.4% | 16.7% | 1483 | 5.3% | 16.3% |
| Alex Gonzalez | 1829 | 4.3% | 19.6% | 3587 | 5.2% | 17.8% |
| Charley Smith | 1188 | 4.5% | 19.6% | 1498 | 5.1% | 22.2% |
| Don Demeter | 1141 | 4.5% | 20.5% | 2589 | 5.0% | 16.4% |
| Craig Paquette | 1492 | 4.0% | 24.7% | 1274 | 4.8% | 19.8% |
| Tony Armas | 1619 | 4.6% | 22.1% | 3883 | 4.8% | 21.7% |
| Corey Patterson | 1854 | 4.7% | 23.4% | 2244 | 4.5% | 18.8% |
| Luis Salazar | 1912 | 3.7% | 15.4% | 2463 | 4.4% | 14.5% |
| Miguel Olivo | 1429 | 4.1% | 24.6% | 1629 | 4.1% | 27.5% |
| Paul Casanova | 1757 | 3.2% | 14.2% | 1173 | 3.8% | 15.3% |
| Shawon Dunston | 2353 | 4.1% | 17.8% | 3923 | 2.7% | 14.8% |
| Average | 1795 | 4.4% | 20.1% | 3137 | 5.7% | 18.5% |
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What happened to their wOBA or OPS as a result?
I ask because we see players that attempt to tame their strikeouts and walk more actually decrease in production (when I looked at Matt Wieters this jumped out at me). Can you calculate wOBA and OPS for first five and second five-years?
Would be really interested to see who benefited and who didn’t.
Writer at Beyond the Box Score and tortured Mets fan (is there any other kind?)
Will do.
I’ll throw that out here when I have a chance.
Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies
by Daniel Moroz on Mar 10, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Cool
I really love this, great stuff.
Writer at Beyond the Box Score and tortured Mets fan (is there any other kind?)
Average the 25 guys (not weighted by PA):
They hit .253/.291/.404 their first five seasons and .256/.300/.416 after. So better, but not by a ton.
Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies
by Daniel Moroz on Mar 10, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
Effects of developing power?
For Sosa, it was part his own discipline and part fear on the part of pitchers. If you split guys by “hitters who developed power” and “others” … would the increase in walk rate show an effect?
It would likely make the effect smaller
I agree. I don’t think the increase was all that big to begin with anyway (and it’s only 25 guys), but it supports the lack of hope of seeing a bad plate disipline player turn into a decent one.
Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies
by Daniel Moroz on Mar 10, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Did you think about looking at vast improvements in the O-swing% as away to get around this problem?
I think Harry makes a really good point. It’s possible that Sosa didn’t develop better plate discipline as much as pitcher refused to give him strikes. Maybe looking at O-swing% gets at that problem at bit better?
Folksy literate type.
We don't have O-swing going back all that far
Also, taking Sosa out doesn’t change things that much (5.5% average BB% for the 6+ years group instead of 5.7%). The more striking thing was that only Sosa even got to around league if you factor in the IBB, and he likely benefited from the effect Harry mentioned. Thinking that even an average walk rate from Jones is very unlikely is not really encouraging.
Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies
by Daniel Moroz on Mar 10, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
putting sosa aside
I wonder if there are cases of players who once swung at everything (as measured by O-swing%) and then became much more disciplined according to O-Swing%. I really don’t know the answer. I’m thinking aloud here. Perhaps players who swing as everything according to O-swing% tend to remain this way. Or maybe the evidence does suggest improvement is possible as shown by a group of cases. I’m guessing declining O-swing% is highly correlated with OBP.
Folksy literate type.
That might be interesting
I’m not sure if anyone has done ‘aging curves’ for O-swing%. It is correlated with BB% (and OBP, but less so since there’s a lot of other BA related things involved).
Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies
by Daniel Moroz on Mar 10, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
Is there hope for Juan Francisco, yet?
"People don't kill people. Burning oreo packages kill people."
It would be interesting to compare these changes to minor league plate discipline stats. It seems like there is a sizeable category of young MLB players who had decent-to-good walk rates in the minors, but experience below average walk rates when they enter the majors. I have always assumed that these hitters are the most likely to improve their plate discipline after several years in the majors. After all, they showed the ability to be selective at one time. But I’m not sure that it’s true.

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