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Yunel Escobar's Bad Attitude: How Much Does It Cost?

I won't do a full analysis  of the trade had Atlanta send Yunel Escobar and Jo-Jo Reyes to the Blue Jays in return for Alex Gonzalez and prospects Tim Collins and Tyler Pastronicky, but needless to say I'm not thrilled with the deal form the Braves' perspective. One of the purported reasons for the seemingly light return is that Escobar apparently has attitude and effort issues that rubbed people the wrong way in Atlanta. That's the piece I want to look at, though it requires going through a bit of other work.

I'm assuming that neither team is run by idiots, but also that their knowledge isn't extraordinarily better than ours. Some people mentioned that we can't just judge the trade a loss for the Braves, because we don't know what they know. Quick responses to that are: (1) of course we can't, (2) that doesn't mean that their extra knowledge adds value (knowing Escobar's favorite pizza topping probably isn't going to swing his OPS more than, say, 50 points), (3) one of the things they can know that we can't which would help regards Yunel's intangibles, but that cat's already out of the bag, and (4) it's no fun to write blog posts where all you do is circle the Not Enough Information option. I'll try to weight everything towards the Braves favor just in case though.

A brief projected production vs. salary break-down (ie, surplus value):

The Braves are giving up:

The updated CHONE projections have Escobar as about a 3.9 WAR player over 600 PA. Let's knock that down to an even 3, which is worse than he did either of the past two years, and start a 0.5 Win decline after next season. He's still under team control for his three arbitration years, and he's making the league minimum this year. If the going rate is $4 M per Win, the rate of inflation for salaries is 7% a year, and the arbitration rates are 40-60-80% of free agent value, then Yunel comes in at about $39.5 M in production value while getting paid $20 M. That's a surplus value of $19.5 M.

We'll assume Reyes doesn't produce anything for simplicities sake.

The Blue Jays are giving up:

Updated CHONE for Gonzalez is 1 WAR per 600 PA. Let's make it 2*, and not even do any aging for next year (assuming his club option is picked up). So he's producing $12.2 M in value while being paid $3.7 M, for a surplus of $8.4 M.

* Worse than Escobar, it should be noted. If the Braves made the move because they wanted an upgrade this year, well, I don't get it. That's why I didn't add anything in for a possible improvement in Atlanta's playoff chances.

I don't know a ton about the minor leaguers involved, but I don't think it would be a stretch to call them both C+ prospects. That's adding maybe $4 M in expected surplus value, based on the research by Victor Wang and the update from Colin here just a couple days ago.

So that's a total of (rounding up) $13 M going the other way.

Subtracting the $19.5 M from the Braves and adding $13 M leaves a net deficit of $6.5 M. Now obviously that might be because my work doesn't match that done by the Braves' front-office - they know Yunel won't break out of his slump, or they think the prospects are actually really, really good. Or they could just place that much value on getting rid of whatever headaches Escobar was giving them, which seems like quite a bit to me. Can removing Yunel's influence really make a full 1-2 win difference to the team? I'd say no, but I don't have a column in my spreadsheet for that.

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I’m guessing they thought they were watching a re-run of Andruw’s last couple years. The difference is that Yunel didn’t have as far to fall, so they got rid of him quicker.

HS team nickname: Redmen, College team nickname: Warriors, Amateur team nickname: Chiefs, Favorite MLB team: Braves. Holy political incorrectness...

by LeeTro on Jul 14, 2010 9:01 PM EDT reply actions  

looks pretty accurate. It was difficult to criticize this trade over at TC, because as you mentioned, there’s really no means of quantifying the the effects being a “bad apple” (as one commenter put it) have on wins.

"Infield hits are sexy, because they require technique."

-Ichiro

by VivaLosBravos on Jul 14, 2010 10:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Eskimo-Bar

Look, I have always been an Escobar fan, but the dude was an absolute cancer in the clubhouse. Bobby hated him and the players hated him. The worst thing to me is how brilliant he could look sometimes, then all of a sudden just have some of the laziest weakest output on a routine play.

Last week, he almost took out one of our best players because he lolly popped a throw to first. Last season, when given an error by the scorekeeper, he turned to look up at him (during the game mind you) and yelled obscene remarks. Its lucky for the braves to get anybody for him. Honestly, I would have traded him for bats and balls.

by James Schroeder on Jul 15, 2010 9:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Trading him for bats and balls

Means giving up potentially the full $19.5 M in surplus value. A guy would have to be pretty cancerous in the clubhouse to be worth giving that up – that’s like over a season of Brian McCann. If having McCann sit out a whole year would make Escobar behave, would that be a fair trade-off in your mind?

Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies

by Daniel Moroz on Jul 15, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a friend of mine tweeted yesterday

People who say this was a bad deal for the Braves have not watched the Braves play all year.

by Torgo's Executive Powder on Jul 16, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

The amount I hate this argument in almost every instance in baseball is extraordinary, but it’s probably the truth in this case.

Twitter: @Ben_Duronio

by BenDuronio on Jul 16, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lazy analysis

This analysis is awful. The Braves need more offense, and were willing to take a small hit on defense to get it. Where the WAR are coming from, offense versus defense, is incredibly important here, yet goes unmentioned. And why not include Gonzalez’s value to date of 3.9 WAR versus Escobar’s 2.3? Wouldn’t you consider that to be important?

Plus, Reyes isn’t even AAAA – his major-league production is worse than replacement-level, which is why he can’t stay in the majors to begin with, producing negative WARP every year. Yet you assume he doesn’t factor into the trade at all, but Braves fans are thrilled to be rid of him.

To bail on including these data is to further skew the analysis away from reality, which makes this post misleading and, to the extreme, dishonest.

by cestilp on Jul 15, 2010 12:20 PM EDT reply actions  

The Braves need more offense...

so they traded for a player with a career OBP of .294? Because, what, they think he’s actually going to keep up with home run rates that are like double his career average?

by JoshNY on Jul 15, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why does it matter "where the WAR is coming from"

Why is giving up a win on defense not as important as gaining a win on offense?

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 15, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is something that annoys me

about fans during July or the Winter Meetings. “We don’t need pitching. We need hitting!!!” (or vice-versa) Would you turn down a 3 win pitcher to add a 2 win hitter just because you “need hitting?” A win is a win and it’s a win whether it comes from hitting, fielding, or pitching.

by chuckb on Jul 15, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Reyes is really below replacement level

Then he doesn’t cut to play in the big leagues and thus doesn’t matter. You cut him and lose nothing. If Braves fans are happy to be rid of him, why didn’t the Braves release him?

Also, the things said above are valid. The criticism is lazy and awful.

Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies

by Daniel Moroz on Jul 15, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

The question you conveniently ignored is: If Reyes really is below replacement level (which he is), then why did the Blue Jays trade for him? You can’t ignore net-negative additions to a ballclub, even if the negative impact is relegated to awful showings between extended outings in the minor leagues. And are your projections updated for league and park effects? I didn’t think so.

by cestilp on Jul 15, 2010 1:03 PM EDT reply actions  

How am I supposed to know

Why the Jays traded for Reyes? So you want me to what, assume Toronto will give Reyes 100 IP with an ERA of 8.00? Seems non-sensical to me.

As to the projections, no they aren’t updated for league/park. I did, however, drop Escobar’s by almost a full win and increase Gonzalez’s by a win. You think it’s more than a 2 win swing just for changing teams?

Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies

by Daniel Moroz on Jul 15, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are tons of prospects currently below replacement level.

Teams hope/anticipate they’ll improve. Reyes is still only 25 and has pretty good minor league numbers. I’m not an expert on him by any means, but his numbers suggest it’s not crazy to he has some talent.

FWIW, CHONE and ZiPS both projected a 5.00 ERA for 2010 from him.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 15, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s got talent, decent fastball and he has the other three pitches. None are too great, but he has them. His main problem was discipline and an unwillingness to change. He was also reported to have problems with certain people. He reportedly had problems with Tom Glavine tutoring him.

Twitter: @Ben_Duronio

by BenDuronio on Jul 15, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

whoops

I love how it’s always the player’s fault and not the club’s when a player can’t gel with clubhouse. Obviously we don’t know what happened, but isn’t it possible that Escobar’s “clubhouse cancer-osity” was a product of the way the club treated him?

by Jack Moore on Jul 15, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is certainly possible

Though it doesn’t affect what I was looking at – how much the Braves might have been willing to pay to get rid of him. That’s doesn’t really depend on whose fault it is.

Generally speaking, I think the player is more likely to be at fault since his precense is largely selected for based on playing ability and not attitude (as long as the latter doesn’t affect the former), while dealing with players is a larger share of the manager’s/team’s job.

But sure, it might be more the Braves in this cause.

Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies

by Daniel Moroz on Jul 15, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you believe the media,

it was a fraternal clubhouse with everyone initiated except Escobr. Could be the Braves, pretty sure Yunel’s just a jackass. The anecdotal evidence is fairly thorough.

by PWHjort on Jul 15, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeh

He’s avoided the media after making critical mistakes, had tantrums on the field, made mental errors all over the place, and even got into it with managers and coaches in the minor leagues such as Jeff Blauser.

Twitter: @Ben_Duronio

by BenDuronio on Jul 15, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a good point.

A lot of young players make “lazy” throws to first that end up endangering the first baseman. A lot of players, both good and bad, have gotten annoyed with official scorekeepers, even to the point of calling them on the phone during games, to protest a perceived bad scoring decision. That doesn’t make it right, of course, but it doesn’t mean that Escobar’s “bad attitude” has cost the Braves wins during the first half either.

I wonder if his “bad attitude” might have been easier to stomach if he was hitting as he did last year or if it wasn’t Cox’s last season. Let’s face it, Hanley Ramirez acted like an idiot earlier this season also but I’d bet that 29 other teams would take him as their shortstop. (Ok, 28…the Yanks aren’t moving Jeter anytime soon.)

by chuckb on Jul 15, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

It definitely would have been. An unnamed Brave said almost exactly that. “It was a lot easier to deal with when he was hitting .300.”

Twitter: @Ben_Duronio

by BenDuronio on Jul 15, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

That just goes to the larger point of how much not having to deal with it is worth. If they could deal with it when he was a .300 hitter but not now, that means there’s a line in there somewhere where things tipped. Given his trackrecord, that means either the line is very close to .300 (so the team is willing to give up a whole lot of value to get rid of the headache), or they think that Escobar’s talent level is a good bit lower than the projections (which include his awful first half).

Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies

by Daniel Moroz on Jul 15, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Man,

Some of these comments are nasty, and the authors should be ashamed of themselves.

I thought it was very good.

I was also pleased to learn that one of my favorite sports writers reads this site.

by PWHjort on Jul 15, 2010 1:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Never mind, just 1 guy.

Didn’t realize the same person wrote both comments.

by PWHjort on Jul 15, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I was probably more sarcastic than I needed to be in the response, but oh well.

The comment at Marchman’s site was neat to see.

Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies

by Daniel Moroz on Jul 15, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

How can you say it doesn’t improve the team for this year. Alex Gonzalez has 17 homeruns, Yunel Escobar has 0. The clubhouse problems, gone. Alex is very good defensively with an affordable contract for the next year in a half. And if you give me an OBP argument, I’ll say this, the Braves lead the NL in OBP and are currently in 13 place in slugging. With Alex Gonzalez they’re now 3rd in OBP, and 8th in SLG%. I’d take that.

And the minor league guys they got seem good. The Tim Collins guy might be only 5’7 in stature but everything I’ve read tells me this guy is awesome, he has 73 strikeouts in 43 innings in AA. And Tyler Pastronicky has one tool Atlanta has been looking for, speed, he plays 2B and SS in A advanced. As for the guy the Jays got, Jojo Reyes, well you were 100% correct when you said he won’t give the Jays any value, he has been up and down the minors and majors the last 3-4 seasons, and he has been awful in the major leagues, but awesome in the minors, until this year where he has managed a new level of suucking

by Tomas Mogollon Hoyos on Jul 16, 2010 11:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Crow?

I just don’t get why everyone is foreseeing a huge turnaround for Yunel and a huge downswing for Alex in their respective second halves. As I tried to demonstrate over on Talking Chop, Gonzalez has not been that far off of Escobar’s pace at the plate since the latter’s debut 2007 season. In fact, if you subtract their weakest 260 AB or so (all of 2010 for Yunel and the Cincy portion of 2009 for Alex) you end up with similar OPS (.801 to .787); moreover, A-Gon has the better UZR over the last two years. In the end, I expect Yunel to be the better statistical player, but not by as much as ditractors expect. The steadiness of Gonzalez, both on and off the field, will be a huge plus. A team looking to win the World Series simply cannot live with an inconsistent SS or a clubhouse cancer. Maybe I’m wrong and I’d be willing to eat my crow if I am, but I wonder if the critics will be as eager to live up to their earlier statements.

MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!

by ejruiz on Jul 16, 2010 12:45 PM EDT reply actions  

.801 OPS vs. .787 is all well and good

But we’re talking about 64 points of OBP (!) in Escobar’s favor to 50 points of slugging for Gonzalez. That’s something like 20 points of wOBA – about a full win between them with the bat per 600 PA (if I did that right). Which also happens to be the difference between the two used in the post.

Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies

by Daniel Moroz on Jul 16, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I made this analogy the other day, it may or may not make sense.

If a team has four good right-handed relievers it is acceptable for them to trade one for a worse left-handed reliever if they are struggling in that department. While the overall talent they have may decrease, they will get better in a certain area in which they lack. The Braves have the highest OBP in the NL but the 13th highest SLG. They have scored the sixth most runs in the NL. Obviously they are lacking in the extra base hit department, which Gonzalez should help in.

Twitter: @Ben_Duronio

by BenDuronio on Jul 16, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure they're trading OBP for SLG

But does that actually lead to more run scoring if a team’s OBP heavy and SLG light? It might to a degree, but I have a hard time thinking it would make up the gap.

Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies

by Daniel Moroz on Jul 16, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Poor article

You did a very poor job in this analysis! Its obvious you do more calculations than baseball watching…

by BallBustaz on Jul 16, 2010 2:42 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm going to leave this comment as an example of what I hope we don't get a lot of here at BtB.

Want to disagree with something in an article? Go for it. Want to disagree with a commenter? Go for it.

But please make it a productive comment (facts are nice; so are rational arguments) and don’t attack people (attack their ideas).

Some might think it’s folly, but I believe we don’t have to settle for ESPN-style comments sections. Thanks!

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 16, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK,

now it’s multiple people that should be ashamed of themselves for their nasty comments.

by PWHjort on Jul 16, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

In fairness to the above person

I actually do spend more of my time doing some sort of calculations than watching baseball in your average 24 hour period.

Orioles blogging at Camden Crazies | Follow on Twitter at @CamdenCrazies

by Daniel Moroz on Jul 16, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

How much Yunel Escobar should he be watching? The only way to do any type of accurate analysis would be with numbers and calculations.

Twitter: @Ben_Duronio

by BenDuronio on Jul 16, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you actually believe that?

by EverettCase on Jul 27, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

One Last Point.

Consistency is underrated, I believe. When your team is a playoff contender and a World Series hopeful, you can have such a radical question mark on your team. We all know the postseason is a crapshoot, so why push your luck by having a guy you know isn’t reliable? Anecdotes might not be compelling for the sabermetric community, but it’s hard to believe a guy like Escobar is 100% into the game when he spends his time on the field after an error interacting with the scorer. It’s also imporant to note that his approach at his position can be downright dangerous, putting Glaus in jeopardy on one occasion that has been pointed too as the straw that broke the camels back. Bottomline: you just can’t go into do-or-die scenarios with a guy whose performance on average is OK, on occasion is spectacular, but can be downright detrimental for sretches. Again, he managed to alienate a very friendly clubhouse (at least by all accounts) and he routinely upset the league’s premier players-manager. Say what you want about Gonzalez, but he should be more consistent and reliable. Just a thought…

MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!

by ejruiz on Jul 17, 2010 9:38 AM EDT reply actions  

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