My Wang Problem
[Sky's note: we're getting to the time of year where prospects will be changing hands in return for current major league talent. Valuing prospects is tricky, but thankfully Victor Wang did a bunch of heavy lifting a couple years ago. Colin's FanPost, which I've bumped to the front page below, raises some questions about using the numbers from the study. He also links to a bunch of relevant articles, so if you're unfamiliar with Wang's research, you can quickly catch up.]
This isn't a particularly big deal, but I think it's going to lead to some errant analysis so it's worth bringing up. Victor Wang's ridiculously awesome research in THT's '09 Annual has given us approximate surplus values for prospects. This obviously makes analysis of prospects-for-stars deals (like the recent Cliff Lee deal) very doable. But I have two issues. One, I wish we would talk about surplus value in wins rather than dollars. Dollars inflate and deflate, so the surplus value chart is going to change year to year. Wins are stable. Fortunately in Victor's summary article at THT, we still get WAB to refer back to.
Two, I think this means that Sky's chart hasn't been adjusted for inflation properly. Victor notes in his research that he was using $4.88MM per win. Last season, free agents went for $3.5MM and right now consensus says we're in the 4-4.4 range afaik. And the result is that when I calculate Smoak's surplus value on my own, I get significantly different values than are found in Sky's chart. I.e. to calculate Smoak's value, let's say he provides 1.5 wins per season over those 6 seasons. That makes him a smidge better than a top 10 hitting prospect in Victor's terms, using the 8% discount.
1.5*6 yields 9 wins times $4MM per win is $36MM in total value. Now we must subtract the dollars paid above the minimum for arb years. So that's 1.5*4*.4 + 1.5*4*.6 + 1.5*4+.8 - 3*.5 ~$9MM. And the total surplus value becomes $27MM. So what was for the M's a crazy good deal is now a merely very good deal, assuming you really like Justin Smoak.
And in case you want to calculate surplus value in the future given an expected wins per season, I think the formula looks like this:
4.2*wins per season*dollars per win +1.5
Top 10 Hitter in 2010 ~ $27MM
Top 11-25 Hitter in 2010 ~ $18MM
Top 75-100 Hitter in 2010 ~$9MM
Using that formula very nearly gives me Sky's chart if I use $4.88MM per win. It's probably a little low because I used a slightly different method for arb accounting.
That all said, there's still a very decent chance I'm just skipping a step somewhere. What I really want is to be able to do this stuff for my handful of readers and ironing out these issues would be a real help, particularly if Kenny Williams pays some price for Adam Dunn or whomever in the upcoming weeks.
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Thanks for doing this. I have a couple concerns with this, though. I’ve made the case a couple times before that these dollar per win values need to adjust for the fact that players who reach free agency tend to underperform their projections significantly (about 15 percent), and also that the dollar per win method that ignores draft pick compensation for free agency underestimates the dollars per win by about 15 percent as well. Lastly, these methods often only look at the first year of free agency which further underrates the cost of a win by another 20 percent. So I’m looking for a way to try to adjust these numbers, because I believe they are much higher than the ones typically used.
Also, is this WAB from THT? How do those compare to WAR from FanGraphs, WAR from Rally/B-R, and WARP from BP? Getting totals for all these is very important, because you need to adjust the dollars per win significantly. There are about 1250 WARP per year, 1000 fWAR, and 865 rWAR. I would love to know how many WAB there are, but it’s tough to find. Does anybody know? Regardless, make sure not to equate 1 WAB with 1 fWAR or anything else considering how much difference it can make.
It would be helpful if someone could make a table of this, so that different methodologies could be used without resorting to the same dollar value for prospects. Again, I think this is great work, I’m just looking for more of the breakdown of number of WAB and all that.
Win Shares Above Bench...
…uses a .350 win percentage baseline for players. I take the ’05 WSAB from here and divide by three to get 808 WAB. That works out to a .334 win percentage.
so if we wanted to convert to fWAR's .290 baseline
for the prospect wins per season, i have to add about .04 wins to each player season?
Fireworks: Bang?
also
regarding your first paragraph, could you link to some of the studies behind the underperformance? if i’ve seen them it’s been a while.
i’m not sure what you mean in the “Lastly, these methods…” sentence.
i’m open to the idea that the model is wrong and i’m more than a little skeptical that the Rangers would pay what seems to be an obviously exorbitant price. and if i understand what you’re saying, we should be revising the dollars per win figure upwards somewhat significantly? if that’s the case, then Cliff Lee is going to be more valuable and the trade makes somewhat more sense. and if teams are operating on these assumptions (and not the ones we’ve been using lately), then we should revise the figure.
Fireworks: Bang?
The most relevant two articles are the two where I developed MORP:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=10629
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=10642
Basically, using an 8% discount rate for wins expected to come six years later, and using a WARP to rWAR adjustment on Sky Andrecheck’s career WAR by draft pick calculator, multiplied by 2/3 as an adjustment for fraction of WARP received in the first six years, multiplied by 70% to adjust for the fact that there is aribtration, I found about a 15% higher $/win cost than ignoring draft pick compensation.
Also, the “Lastly…” sentnece is basically me saying ignoring subsequent years of a players contract in $/win was about a $0.5MM/win difference IIRC. So a lot of people do these things by getting projected WAR for the first year and dollars. But players in the first-year of their deals make about a million less per win (or something like that) than players in the second year and on of their deals.
The links to some of the articles discussing projection and performance are here:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=10505
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=10883
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=11003
The basics of these are that teams pay significantly more for free agents that previously belonged to other teams than their own free agents, even after a million adjustments, and free agents who reach free agency underperform their PECOTA projections by 15% (and their CHONE projections about the same, according to an article by Rally linked within).
The total of 808 WAB means that you would need to multiply the $/WAB by 0.808 to get $/WAR. That’s a big part of why these trades always look great for the non-contending team in the stars for prospects swaps. The prospects are given a dollar value that is too high by 25%.
I also got a much higher draft pick value than $5MM too, which I explain in the article.
Also, the in-season value for wins is at a higher premium. A player who would add 6% to your likelihood of making the playoffs now adds 10% to your likelihood of making the playoffs. I discussed this stuff here:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9263
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=11414
Sorry to link so many of my articles, but it’s very tough to explain this all succintly. I’ve been working on this a lot the past year :) Anyway, let me know if you have questions.
by Matt Swartz on Jul 12, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
this is nice
i can work with this. converting back to fWAR, you get pretty close to a $4MM figure from ‘08-’10?
Fireworks: Bang?
yeah, i think it should be 6.25MM for fangraphs. there are fewer fWAR than WARP, so it should be more expensive. i guess that makes prospects more expensive, but also free agents. there is also the issues of discounting future wins and dollars, but also inflating salaries. so it gets a little tricky there, and requires some judgment calls.
tango hasn’t yet responded to my suggestions at this stage, as far as i know. i know that the underperforming projections is something that he knows about, but i think he’s content to just overproject and multiply by a smaller dollar figure. not really sure, it’s worth asking him. i know he doesn’t really like past contracts being included in current $/win, but i don’t see how you ignore that. the draft pick compensation i don’t know his thoughts on.

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