15 Minute Rant - Stupidity of Saves

by Jeff Zimmerman on May 4, 2010 8:08 AM EDT

Get rid of the save statistic now. Teams just refuse to use their closer in the highest leverage situations. I don't get why a manager doesn't use their best reliever in the 8th inning with people on base and the heart of the lineup batting. I can understand why some relievers are on limited innings do to previous injuries (i.e. Soria, Wood), but the best person should be used when the game is on the line.

The following are excuses I hear when I bring up this argument.

Excuse #1 - "He can't go two innings."

I agree, let someone else pitch the ninth inning.

Excuse #2 - "He won't get the save."

So the player is not that much of a team player that he won't do his job when it is needed.

Excuse #3 - If a team doesn't allow the top closer to get saves, the team won't be able to get top relievers to play for them.

I hope this is not the main reason driving these game time decisions, the illusion that players won't play for a team for multi-millions of dollars because some of their stats won't get padded to their liking.

My solution would be to get rid of saves entirely and make only holds count. The holds could eventually be weighted someway with innings pitched or leverage index. First, let us start with baby steps and get rid of saves. Everyone that helps keep a lead get the same credit and maybe some of the stupid manager decisions based on saves will be eliminated.

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what I don't understand, never going for a 3 inning save

why there isn’t more emphasis on a 3 inning save

There are many games throughout a season where a team has a big lead, 8-4 or something, after 6 innings. Why not have a guy who can pitch 3 innings for the save. many managers will use 3-4 pitchers to make it through the game.

I am a Mets fan. so for example. why not bring in Mejia or Takahashi for a 3 inning save. Tak has pitched well in mop up games, but give him a go during these situations also.
Mejia is someone that want to work into the rotation eventually, and should be at AA learning how to start. But as long as he is here, why not put him in for a 3 inning save. If we have the big lead like last Friday against the Phils we used 2 pitchers to finish a 9-1 win. Now Niese finished 7 in this game. But lets say for arguement sake, in a similar game, the starter is gases after 6. Bring in Mejia for 3,if he gives up 2 runs, so what that is still 9-3 and he gains a ton of experience workig throough an entire lineup.

so the young guy learns how to pitch a little more, The bullpen is saved for when we are in a 1-2 run game, and we still win the game

by Rickfansince76 on May 4, 2010 9:14 AM EDT reply actions

Preparation?

I agree that the save is a dumb statistic and should be eliminated, but couldn’t there be something to be said for knowing which inning you’re going to pitch? I’m sure some closers have the physical and mental capability to warm up quickly and be thrust into any situation successfully. I also imagine that some closers are more dependent on routine (warming up while his team bats and entering a bases empty, no out situation). Closers can keep an eye on the inning and score and have a pretty good idea of exactly when they are going to be needed. Unless they start putting leverage index meters on the scoreboard, they might have a tougher time adjusting to different usage patterns.

I’m not convinced of this argument myself, but it’s another lame excuse to deal with.

by PWood on May 4, 2010 10:30 AM EDT reply actions

Per usual,

the statistic isn’t the problem. Bad management is.

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by Justin Bopp on May 4, 2010 11:47 AM EDT reply actions

Not all teams use their best reliever as closer.

Bobby Jenks is the “closer” in Chicago, but Thornton is probably the best reliever. Bobby gets to start the ninth with no one on base, whereas Thornton comes in to higher leverage situations. In Colorado, Morales is the interim closer, but Manny Corpas and Matt Daley have been more effective. If Morales pitches with no one on base, it’s less likely that he’ll walk or balk in a run. Meanwhile, the other two have done a great job of getting outs when they’re needed.

I think that a lot of teams that employ this strategy don’t do so by design. It seems like they usually have a veteran closer who signed a big contract, so he pitches the ninth. Due to the variable nature of relievers, there are often one or two guys who step up and perform better than the anointed closer, and are available for important eighth inning situations.

by RoxnSox09 on May 4, 2010 12:11 PM EDT reply actions

What are these reliable set up guys your are talking about?

-A Royals Fan

- .-. ..- … – / – …. . / .—. .-. - .. . … …

by Jeff Zimmerman on May 4, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Juan Cr-

Oh wait.. I meant Bruce Chen.

I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy

by Satchel Price on May 4, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions

even so, they've designated one of their top 2 or 3 relievers for "9th-inning-only"

because of saves, which is less efficient. At least they’re moving in the right direction, much like TB with Howell being their fireman.

by SagehenMacGyver47 on May 4, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Similar to wins/losses

In that it does not tell you that much about a pitcher. That said, it will stay as a mainstream stat and it is up to the manager to use who he thinks will work best in what situation.

A lot of times, they are going to play matchups in the 8th inning and bring the closer in in the 9th regardless.

by JoshuaR on May 4, 2010 1:17 PM EDT reply actions

only holds

What if instead of saves, only holds were used?

Wouldn’t that mean players like Krod or Street wouldn’t raise their value so high so quick that they price themselves out of town? Three out of the top six relievers in war were not closers. If saves were turned into holds, supposed closers probably wouldn’t be paid as much and valuable relievers that are often pitching in high leverage situations would be paid more.

by dougbies on May 4, 2010 3:24 PM EDT reply actions