Defining "Good at Everything"
People say it all the time—he's "good at everything". Well, he's usually not.
Perhaps that's just because of how I define "everything". I define it as "everything quantifyable by Rally's WAR". So perhaps I have different criteria than your father-in-law does.
So, that's:
- Batting (on base and slugging)
- Baserunning
- Ability to avoid the double play
- Ability to induce errors (apparently that's a measurable skill)
- Range (for infielders and outfielders)
- Ability to turn the double play (for infielders)
- Arm (for outfielders)
- Catching (for, well, catchers)
- Positional Adjustment (I want my "good at everything" guys to play a high-value position, too)
How did I search for a player who's "good at everything"?
- Batting runs, Baserunning runs, Total Zone runs, and Positional Adjustment runs are all greater than 0.
- GIDP runs, Reach on Error runs, Infield DP runs, Outfield Arm runs, and Catcher runs are all greater than or equal to 0 (this is because some older players only have a 0 for their career because there isn't any data available for these categories).
Simply running this search yielded 49 players in the history of the game.
I was discussing the list with a good friend of mine when he said "I'm surprised that Kenny Lofton's power was above average." This got me thinking—batting runs is a pretty broad skill. We can break that up into individual skills. So, I went with the two OPS components—on base percentage (for patience) and slugging percentage (for power). I cut out any players below league average for their careers in either of these categories.
This got me down to 31 players.
| Name | PlApp | Bat | ROE | BSrun | DP | TZ | IFDP | OFarm | catcher | Pos | WAR | WAR/700 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Honus Wagner | 11518 | 699 | 0 | 45 | 0 | 66 | 19 | 0 | 0 | 104 | 134.5 | 8.17 |
| Nap Lajoie | 10239 | 581 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 62 | 21 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 104.2 | 7.12 |
| George Davis | 9976 | 380 | 0 | 28 | 0 | 143 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 87 | 90.7 | 6.36 |
| Charlie Gehringer | 10096 | 391 | 0 | 38 | 0 | 30 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 74 | 80.9 | 5.61 |
| Bill Dahlen | 10235 | 188 | 0 | 25 | 0 | 139 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 140 | 75.9 | 5.19 |
| Frankie Frisch | 9871 | 195 | 0 | 63 | 0 | 115 | 25 | 0 | 0 | 73 | 74.8 | 5.30 |
| Alan Trammell | 9175 | 124 | 12 | 21 | 19 | 59 | 17 | 0 | 0 | 118 | 66.9 | 5.10 |
| Frank Baker | 6507 | 285 | 0 | 7 | 0 | 35 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 52 | 63.7 | 6.85 |
| Jackie Robinson | 5689 | 276 | 7 | 39 | 1 | 51 | 28 | 2 | 0 | 20 | 63.2 | 7.78 |
| Sal Bando | 8166 | 208 | 17 | 11 | 5 | 28 | 8 | 0 | 0 | 38 | 60.6 | 5.19 |
| Jack Glasscock | 7531 | 116 | 0 | 8 | 0 | 149 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 108 | 58.7 | 5.46 |
| Bid McPhee | 9359 | 150 | 0 | 37 | 0 | 154 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 42 | 57.9 | 4.33 |
| Billy Herman | 8470 | 167 | 0 | 12 | 0 | 37 | 18 | 0 | 0 | 65 | 55.6 | 4.60 |
| Stan Hack | 8391 | 240 | 0 | 24 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 15 | 54.8 | 4.57 |
| Carlos Beltran | 6790 | 178 | 11 | 52 | 14 | 67 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 18 | 54.7 | 5.64 |
| Buck Ewing | 5764 | 231 | 0 | 43 | 0 | 16 | 0 | 0 | 58 | 35 | 51.8 | 6.29 |
| Tommy Leach | 8811 | 114 | 0 | 43 | 0 | 67 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 50.9 | 4.04 |
| John McGraw | 4894 | 337 | 0 | 24 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 34 | 49.3 | 7.05 |
| Hughie Jennings | 5538 | 225 | 0 | 20 | 0 | 60 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 51 | 48.0 | 6.07 |
| Heinie Groh | 6853 | 157 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 35 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 44 | 46.4 | 4.74 |
| Gil McDougald | 5271 | 94 | 4 | 6 | 2 | 83 | 16 | 0 | 0 | 42 | 40.0 | 5.31 |
| Harlond Clift | 6841 | 141 | 0 | 5 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 18 | 34.7 | 3.55 |
| Fred Dunlap | 4264 | 147 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 80 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 19 | 34.7 | 5.70 |
| Chase Utley | 3777 | 140 | 1 | 20 | 13 | 49 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 15 | 34.5 | 6.39 |
| Ross Barnes | 2506 | 252 | 0 | 15 | 0 | 57 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 15 | 33.1 | 9.25 |
| Robby Thompson | 5117 | 43 | 18 | 18 | 5 | 18 | 18 | 0 | 0 | 28 | 31.0 | 4.24 |
| Freddie Lindstrom | 5958 | 79 | 0 | 14 | 0 | 21 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 10 | 29.2 | 3.43 |
| George Wright | 2942 | 128 | 0 | 16 | 0 | 75 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 35 | 28.5 | 6.78 |
| Frank Fennelly | 3451 | 80 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 9 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 51 | 19.1 | 3.87 |
| Jimmy Wood | 512 | 44 | 0 | 7 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 4.8 | 6.56 |
| Bob Glenalvin | 344 | 6 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2.4 | 4.88 |
When I originally did the research, the minimum requirement wasn't zero. It was one. This changed things dramatically. My list of 31 was then a list of 7—Trammell, Robinson, Bando, Beltran, McDougald, Utley, and Thompson. And these seven are basically the guys we have "true" data on. The others played in an era where the data for at least one of the categories was incomplete. I actually started this research with the assumption that Trammell would be first. While he does drop to sixth on the list above, the five ahead of him have incomplete data for some categories.
The list of 31 breaks down to:
- 14 Hall of Famers (Wagner, Lajoie, Davis, Gehringer, Frisch, Baker, Robinson, McPhee, Herman, Ewing, Jennings, McGraw, Lindstrom, Wright)
- 4 players often debated for The Hall (Trammell, Bando, Hack, Groh)
- 3 underrated guys who should be debated for the Hall more often (Dahlen, Glasscock, Barnes)
- 2 active players (Beltran, Utley)
- 5 steady veterans (Leach, McDougald, Clift, Dunlap, Thompson)
- 3 low-playing time surprises (Fennelly, Wood, Glenalvin)
By position, the breakdown is:
- 1 catcher (Ewing)
- 2 outfielders (Beltran and Leach, though Leach played almost as many games at 3B than in the OF)
- 28 infielders
No player was above average (>0) in more categories than Jackie Robinson. Not only did lack any zeroes in any of his categories, his outfield arm was even two runs above average in the 162 games he played outside of the infield. Looking at Baseball-Reference.com further, it shows that Robinson played 748 games at second, 256 at third, 197 at first, and 162 in the outfield. Taking this "good at everything" to the extreme, Robinson's defensive ratings were above average at each position.
Jackie Robinson was the Gold Standard for "Good at Everything".
31 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Jeez, Robinson's pretty much the most well-rounded player ever then, right?
I mean, not only was he good at everything on the field, but he was nothing but good off the field, too.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
That's pretty awesome.
This is probably a ridiculous question, but how many players just barely missed the mark here?
A ton
And it’s a fairly arbitrary cutoff too. There’s the fact that it essentially negates 1B, DH, LF and RF right off the bat. Then if a guy has a -1 in ROE, he doesn’t make the cut. So, this may not be a definitive list of who’s the best at everything, but it is a definitive list of who fits this criteria. :)
On Twitter: @baseballtwit
Yeah
A more appropriate title might’ve been, “Defining ‘Good at Everything’ As Calculated by Rally.”
Although I do like seeing Beltran there. I wish he wouldn’t have trouble staying healthy, there’s a HOF case I’d like to argue about in 15 years.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on May 19, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
In my defense, I do say:
Perhaps that’s just because of how I define “everything”. I define it as “everything quantifyable by Rally’s WAR”.
On Twitter: @baseballtwit
by adarowski on May 19, 2010 4:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Too hard on outfielders?
I like what you’ve done here Adam, but I think you’re being too hard on outfielders simply because of their position.
I mean, let’s take Tris Speaker for an example. He played his entire career nearly in Center Field. He leads, by a large margin, the outfield assist totals over his career. His career fielding percentage is a good margin higher than the league average as well.
Add into that a guy whose WAR would be second on this list, and I wonder… how does he fall outside this criteria?
One option would be to require total defense to be positive (fielding + posAdj)
That gives guys at lesser positions a chance to be better than average if they’re really good at their position. They’re still a net defensive asset…
It would also reward shortstops/catchers who were a bit below average at their position.
But they were obviously good enough to hold down that tough position.
The one thing that raises my eyebrows is the positional adjustment
required to be positive. Surely there’s a 1B who was (is) good at everything (Pujols)?
See Data Differently. Beyond The Boxscore. | Follow me @justinbopp
Two Out Rally, the new BASEBALL MMORPG! | Facebook | Twitter
Yeah, I think that seems kind of unfair to those players
Because, while most well-rounded players play premium defensive positions, there are some guys that play non-premium positions that are still pretty impressive defensively/on the bases.
Guys like Pujols, Berkman and Derrek Lee come to mind, or even guys that don’t quite belong at first base, like Darin Erstad when he played there.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on May 19, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Pujols isn't really "good at everything" though.
A SS can theoretically be competent at 1B. A 1B will almost always not be competent at SS. The SS can do more than a 1B, on a fundamental level. Being really good at baseball doesn’t mean you’re good at everything in baseball.
by yellomellojello on May 19, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
So you're saying Pujols couldn't play SS?
;)
See Data Differently. Beyond The Boxscore. | Follow me @justinbopp
Two Out Rally, the new BASEBALL MMORPG! | Facebook | Twitter
Right
But Pujols is good at everything that a first baseman can legitimately be good at.
Pujols’ range might not be good compared to the entire population of position players, but it is good compared to the population of first basemen, which I think is a more reasonable basis for comparison.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on May 19, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Kind of tough on left handed throwers aren't you?
The only position that has a positive positional adjustment that left handers traditionally are allowed to play is center field. Also, left handed hitters are not usually above average on ROE unless they hit the other way a lot. Didn’t look closely. Did any left handers make your list?
by pjensen on May 19, 2010 2:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Maybe ROE and GIDP runs could be combined into "little offensive things"?
And on defense, maybe the non-range fielding things should be combined?
Or, instead of picking an arbitrary cutoff, is there some mathematical way to do some sort of “average” where being really good in a category isn’t much help, but being bad in a category really kills you? So instead of a 1 in something disqualifying a player from the list, it just hurts them - but if every other number is really good, they could still rate well overall?
Something else worth looking at
Pitchers that are/were also good hitters.
See Data Differently. Beyond The Boxscore. | Follow me @justinbopp
Two Out Rally, the new BASEBALL MMORPG! | Facebook | Twitter
How many pitchers were there
who were both good pitchers and above average hitters? I imagine the list would be pretty small, even if you’re including dead ball era. We already know Babe Ruth misses out. But as far as I know there’s only ever been one player who was primarily a pitcher who was also an above-average hitter with over 500 career at-bats, and that’s Wes Ferrell.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
And maybe Red Lucas
although he was a pretty average pitcher. And by OPS+, he was a below average hitter.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Where did Willie Mays fall short?
He was always held out for me as the all-tools player, and I can’t immediately think of a category that would have disqualified him. Did his latter years of lesser performance drag him below zero in something?
Position and GIDP
With -15 and -14, respectively. Kind of surprised by the GIDP.
On Twitter: @baseballtwit
by adarowski on May 19, 2010 4:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It's kind of silly that RBOE is included
If you hit a homer half your plate appearances (extreme example) then you’re not going to be very good at inducing errors at all. This doesn’t mean you are below average at anything.
by benderbrodriguez on May 19, 2010 3:47 PM EDT reply actions
I dont know for sure, but I'd guess Rally accounts for that.
Your RBOE ability is based on balls you put in play. (Again, I think.)
What would your revised criteria be?
I’m thinking of combining TZ and Pos, taking the positive from that. Should I keep or kill ROE?
On Twitter: @baseballtwit
by adarowski on May 19, 2010 4:14 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
when you said Trammell
I instinctively thought of Larkin. he misses out because he had a -2 ROE.
by Charlie Scrabbles on May 19, 2010 4:26 PM EDT reply actions
I'm surprised Barry Larkin didn't make the cut
but I didn’t follow the game as closely during my younger days either
Charlie pointed out above he barely missed
I’m curious what this looks like without ROE, too. That’s kind of a weird “skill”.
On Twitter: @baseballtwit
None of the listed guys played on turf, correct?
That could depress Larkin’s roe’s.
by ken on May 19, 2010 8:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Interesting point -- I wonder how it affects GIDPs.
Turf would let more potential-GIDP GB’s through the infield, but it also lets them get to fielders more quickly and in a way that’s easier to field.

by 



































