Visualizing the Difference Between Offensive and Defensive Value for Catchers

Adam takes a look at the very different ways catchers earn their value.

about 2 years ago Dan Turkenkopf 7 comments 0 recs |

Comments

if molina and mc cann

were on the same team, mc cann would be playing 1B for me, regardless of the WAR shown.
that leads me to believe the defensive WAR numbers for catchers, are not grading defensive ability high enough.

fan voting put molina as the NL starter at the 09 all-star game, and i don’t believe it is because the fans were undervaluing mc cann’s bat.

by ball in play on Feb 10, 2010 9:23 AM EST reply actions

Touchy feely

hat leads me to believe the defensive WAR numbers for catchers, are not grading defensive ability high enough.

I actually think the issue is that they don’t actually quantify everything about catchers. They quantify (just about) everything the catcher himself does to create or prevent runs. But how about the effect a catcher can have on a pitching staff? You know, the touchy feely stuff?

While “intangibles” are often shrugged off in saber circles, I think catcher is one position where they do make a difference. I think a pitcher’s comfort level with the guy calling his pitches is real and can lead to better or worse performance.

Jason Varitek has a whopping “0” for his career “Catch” rating. But listen to his pitchers talk about him (well, up until the last year or so). They love throwing to the guy. He has them in a zone that they wouldn’t be in with another catcher. That’s worth something. We just have no idea what.

by adarowski on Feb 10, 2010 10:59 PM EST reply actions

sort of like the fear Jim Rice instilled in opposing pitchers

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by Matt Klaassen on Feb 13, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions

Laugh all you want

but just like people who don’t realize the value of stat driven analysis, people that think something doesn’t exist just because they can’t see it or count it are just as close minded. One fact about baseball that will probably never change is that it is played by humans and if one pitcher has more confidence in his catcher’s game plan (for whatever reason) than the opposing pitcher he clearly has an advantage and everyone can see it too. The hard work and insight brought to the public by saber analysts has both confirmed and debunked many thoughts I previously held. One thing I would love to see examined is what type of pitcher receives the most “out of range” defensive help from his fielders. I will advance a theory that it would be the confident, around the plate, quick worker as opposed to the shaking off, walk around the mound type. How many runs/pitches/bullpen warm ups does this save? That we can count. How much did the catcher have to do with this? That is something we probably will never know.

by t agee on Feb 14, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions

Dan Fox and I both looked at whether quick-working pitchers get better defensive support

Dan found no significant effect and I found that the effect, if it exists, was very small.

My article:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/short-work/

Dan’s article (BP subscribers only):
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6181

by Mike Fast on Feb 18, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions

Mike, thanks for the reply

Maybe this is another myth debunked by statistical analysis. I come here more from a watching, playing and loving baseball background but I also have a deep appreciation of the insight gleaned from others hard work. I always enjoyed the Bill James books and even contributed to Project Scorecard (sheet?) many years ago. Regarding defensive support though I have a longstanding belief fostered over 40 years of playing baseball as an infielder that the best defensive support is realized by the pitchers who are consistently on or near the plate. The types of pitchers where your not crouching down getting back up seemingly hundreds of times. The type of pitcher that walks very few, and where your off the field and right back at ‘em in no time at all. Now maybe these are just the best pitchers period and that’s the reason but I still feel that a pitcher gives himself the best chance of defensive support based on the how FEW pitches per 1/2 inning he throws. Not unwilling to do some research myself but not really quite sure how or where to start I wonder if the out of range plays made and in range plays not made could be sorted by less than average or more than average pitch counts per 1/2 inning both for that inning and cumulative. I’m not saying I’m right just that I have always felt this way. Any ideas?

by t agee on Feb 21, 2010 4:07 PM EST up reply actions

The guys who've studied "catcher ERA"

haven’t been able to identify a persistent skill. That doesn’t mean it’s not there, of course. There have been several studies recently of pitch framing ability using pitch-level data that have found various levels of that skill. A couple people have also measured pitch blocking ability using pitch level data. Game-calling ability and pitcher-coaching ability is a much, much tougher thing to measure from the data.

Sean Smith’s WAR includes the running game and pitch blocking ability into his catcher defense measures, although he’s not getting down to the pitch-level for measuring pitch blocking like we can with PITCHf/x data for recent players. He doesn’t include anything in catcher defense for pitch framing, game calling, or pitcher coaching skills.

Tango’s WOWY studies seem like a pretty good technique for valuing overall catcher defense if you have a big enough sample.

by Mike Fast on Feb 18, 2010 11:45 AM EST up reply actions