That’s
2118 different players in 5 years. No repeats. At all. I mean- there are quite a few repeats of 40+ run hitters or 55+ run pitchers- you see a lot of Pujols and Cabrera and Halladay and Lee. But the fielding just looks like a bad exercise of statistical noise.This, again, cuts to the heart of the point I’ve made at least a dozen times on this site: I just can’t accept using WAR as our shorthand for valuing a player when it’s so heavily influenced by wildly fluctuating fielding.
by sterlingice at RoyalsReview
ed: Check out our comments section for another great discussion regarding the growing scrutiny of and the wishing for better defensive data and associated metrics. -jbopp
over 1 year ago
Jeff Zimmerman
45 comments
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Comments
Agreed
I was thinking about ways to cut back on the bias and noise, but something Colin said really stuck with me. Over at the book blog he said something to the effect of, range bias is linear, no matter what the sample size or the amount you regress, it will still be present (thats how I remember it at least!).
Whats the solution? I’m not sure. Are the fan scouting reports the most accurate thing we have? Probably not. But, waiting for field f/x isn’t the answer either…
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shouldn't fielding f/x give much greater detailed defensive stats though?
I don’t know too much about it, but it sounds like it would be the most reliable and accurate way to measure true fielding ability
Don't disagree
But how long are you willing to wait for it? Who says it coming at all?
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Whoops- my bad on the 21 vs 18 :D
Also, I went back and checked this afternoon because I was shocked to not see Franklin Gutierrez twice and that stood out in my mind. He did 31.0 in 2009 and was actually at 20.0 in 2008. However, I used the Fangraphs defaults of “Qualified Only” players so he was left out for 2008.
(That said, this is a player who did 20.0 in 2/3rds of a season, 31.0 in a full season, and then, inexplicably, only 7.3 last season)
Remember that Gutierriez did have +16 in DRS and +15 in TZ in 2010 and his FSR remained unchanged from 2009 at +11.
I think one reason for the discrepency between DRS and UZR is that (and I think this is correct, but I might be wrong)
UZR doesn’t take runs saved by robbing home runs into account, while DRS does. Franklin Gutierrez tied with Ichiro for the league lead in rHR at +5.
While I agree with the general point
I think you can easily look at fielding stats and WAR and just use your best judgement. Not to mention all this proves is that 6 of these guys never repeated.
Of the guys listed, these are the guys who played no other full season or only one other full season to prove that those numbers weren’t a fluke : Adam Everett, Ryan Freel, Andruw Jones (special case we should all be able to agree on), Omar Vizquel, Franklin Gutierrez, Brett Gardner, Coco Crisp, Jay Bruce, Ryan Sweeney, Ben Zobrist, Nyjer Morgan, Andres Torres
These are the guys that scored their best season (the one on the list) at an easier position than the others during this time frame
Randy Winn – Scored high with 133 games in RF then generally played 100 games at RF and 50 in CF.
Jacoby Ellsbury – Scored crazy high in RF and then moved to CF where he was terrible. Park data for Fenway was also fixed this year in UZR update. Also injured this year.
Then we have the guys who accrued almost all of their value with their arm which has since been proven to be flukey (as in, the only reason someone will have most of their fielding value tied in to their arm is because of a fluke season) :
Alfonso Soriano – Famous case, many misjudged his arm strength.
Jeff Francouer – Strong arm, but like I said, nobody has that much value tied to their arm.
That shrinks the list down to : Willy Taveras (2006), Ichiro Suzuki (2006), Pedro Feliz (2007), Albert Pujols (2007).
This list is riddled with guys who have had one or two full seasons, guys who scored really well at an easier position (RF/LF) then moved to a tougher position (CF), and guys who had understandably flukey seasons. Basically all this list tells me is that if you see someone score 25+ as a fielder you should realize that’s probably a fluke season…which is nothing new…
Basically – Use common sense. Always use a 3 season average of WAR & UZR just like you would use a 3 season average for offense or pitching.
Ugh
I hate this argument.
First off, showing that there are no repeat 20+ run fielders is cherry picking and doesn’t mean anything. Doing a year to year correlation on fielding stats, and comparing that to hitters stats is much more fair. Even that isn’t a good approach. Maybe the author should actually be aware of all the research out there on the validity of fielding metrics before throwing together some 30 second study and making a strong conclusion?
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/our_lab_bias_in_batted_ball_data/
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/conclusions/
Besides, even if the metrics are that bad, what else are you going to value players? It’s not like you can just ignore fielding when valuing players. If you use WAR, and take out the fielding component, that’s the same exact thing as giving everyone an average rating – and that’s going to be ever worse than UZR.
The best thing, in my opinion, would be to use a rolling average of UZR in the WAR calculation – but single season UZR isn’t terrible towards figuring out a players past value (It’s of course going to have large error bars, and likely should be regressed to the mean, but for most players it should be fine).
FWIW
This stuff has been published on the book in the past few days, so maybe the poster hasn’t seen it. I won’t be able to read it until next wed. Can you sum it up for me? Is there still a major disagreement about the UZR input?
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There's a disagreement as to whether or not UZR is actually better than the basic FRAA fielding metrics
Due to, among other things, claims of bias on batted ball data. But the discussions been going on for awhile now with multiple BPro posts, those are just the most recent ones. And the discussion has incited many ways of trying test the validity of UZR.
thanks
I know the BPro posts, but I was wondering if anything new came from the labs.
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The best thing, in my opinion, would be to use a rolling average of UZR in the WAR calculation – but single season UZR isn’t terrible towards figuring out a players past value (It’s of course going to have large error bars, and likely should be regressed to the mean, but for most players it should be fine).
I hate when people say this a lot more than you hate this argument.
by cwyers on Dec 4, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What do you mean?
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Yes, Colin I know that you think regression to the mean won't solve anything because of biases
But a rolling average and regression to the mean will improve things in terms of random error.
Do you know how great the bias is? How much is it compared to that of random error?
If there is a persistent bias, a rolling average...
…will not improve things. It will only ensure that you are measuring the bias more precisely over a larger sample. We don’t want a measure of bias, though, we want a measure of fielding.
However, measuring the bias and then adjusting for the bias is probably the best course for dealing with the fielding problem
But isn’t the bulk of the bias range bias, which acts as regression to the mean anyways? And park bias, but UZR already adjusts for park (I’m not sure how well).
UZR adjusts for park effects on a player's outs...
…not park effects on EXPECTED outs, which is what a data bias would cause.
And range bias works akin to regression to the mean (although it behaves linearly, not like regression to the mean) if you ignore adjacent fielders, which we’ve done in some of the discussion about the issue as a simplifying assumption. But that’s not the same thing as saying that it doesn’t affect adjacent fielders, we just haven’t managed to quantify HOW it affects adjacent fielders yet.
As far as how great the bias is...
…which bias are we talking about? Are we talking about park-based biases or player-based biases? The recent focus has been on how range bias affects individual players, but we know that year to year agreement of “advanced” fielding metrics drops substantially (in terms of r/r-squared) for players who switch teams. Some of that may be selection effect, but I think at least some of it is due to either park effects on data collection or effects based on adjacent fielders.
And those biases will manifest themselves differently depending on how you construct the metric. BIS’ own metric, rPM, has a larger SD than UZR despite being based on the same data. Some of that is due to an additional bias in UZR dealing with the handling of errors. Does that completely explain it? I don’t know.
And have we identified all the biases in the data? Again, don’t know. The Venn diagram of people who have been actively investigating data problems and those who have access to the most data is pretty much a set of eyeglasses. It’s convenient to assume that we’ve identified all the biases inherent in the data now, but I have no idea if it’s helpful.
But still
My point is that we don’t know how the biases work in UZR, all we know is that there are potentially a lot of them. But, if we were given a certain player’s UZR, it would be very hard to tell which direction the sum of the biases are acting.
However, we do know – on average – which direction the sum of the random error is acting. And we can adjust for that. So why wouldn’t we adjust for the things that we know affect the metric, and how they do so? Wouldn’t that, given our knowledge of the biases, improve the accuracy of UZR.
Because if the aggregate amount of bias exceeds random error...
…and points in the opposite direction of random error, you’re making things worse, not better.
And I want to point out that we have two fielding metrics...
…that have a proven range bias – STATS ZR and TotalZone. Both explicitly count all plays made as BIZ, thus inflating the number of expected outs for good fielders (and deflating the number of expected outs for poor fielders).
And yet those metrics have a standard deviation similar to what UZR or DRS report. So I think it’s reasonable to assume that range bias IS shrinking the observed spread of fielding in “advanced” metrics.
But, we don't know which way the bias points
Maybe half of the time the bias inflates UZR, half the time the bias deflates UZR (or some other more reasonable distribution). We know that 70% of the time, or whatever, the random error inflates UZR.
Do we?
Let’s break down UZR for a second. The essence of any fielding metric relative to average is:
Outs made – Expected outs
That gives you plays above average. Most metrics convert this to runs above average, although for our purposes here the nature of this conversion is unimportant. (It generally works out to multiplying plays by a constant, somewhere around .7 to .8. There are more complicated methods, and dependent upon how reliant they are on the particular batted ball data they may introduce additional “noise” or “bias,” but for now let’s pass that on by.)
There is very little bias in the “observed outs” term – there is a little, though. Mostly this is because of borderline GB/LD – some metrics exclude LD plays for infielders, and if you have a park effect on the GB/LD boundary (and I think you do) that’s going to complicate matters. And there’s practically no random measurement error on observed outs.
Most of our interest is in bias on expected outs, though. And here’s where it gets interesting. Expected outs comes from looking at the data, and saying “given these parameters, what’s the average rate of plays made?” And common to most of these metrics are the parameters of batted ball type, distance and angle (typically broken down into “zones” – STATS zones, for instance, run roughly 4.1 degrees). So your expected outs category is driven by:
- The actual distribution of BIP.
- Any systemic biases you have – observer positioning biases, range biases, etc.
- Random measurement error in the batted ball distribution.
So in terms of what HAPPENED (as opposed to trying to forecast events), almost all of your error is centered on the expected outs term.
When you regress, you do so based upon the expectation that if you pick the top 20 percent of players, for instance, collectively they will have gotten lucky in terms of random error. Is this true?
We don’t know. It’s possible, for instance, that the top 20 percent may have gotten “lucky” in terms of actual outs made given their BIP distribution, but were average in terms of random error. Or perhaps their “luck” was to play in a park that encourages scorers to assume they had harder BIP to field than the average fielders.
It is very difficult to know how much regression to do without having some understanding of how much the other variables affect expected outs. And simply regressing UZR, rather than regressing the expected outs component, makes the process much more difficult.
by cwyers on Dec 4, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Wait.
If a 3-year average of regressed UZR isn’t a solution we can stomach, what is?
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I suggested that solution
Over twitter and while Colin didn’t respond to me, his point on the book blog that day about the range bias being linear answered the point.
Thats kind of my point above. The fan reports of a joke. I think think there are two questions that need to be answered (not easy ones).
What is the best way to measure fielding objectively today?
What is the next advancement before field f/x?
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I know Colin's said DER is what we have for Team level, but does that hold for ind. level, too?
Or no?
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Also, are the odds of Fieldf/x even becoming public under 1000 to 1?
I mean, HITf/x was assumed to be a public entity last year, no? Even if we get hitf/x, I doubt Fieldf/x gets turned public anytime in the foreseeable future. Then again, that’s just my conclusion from things I’ve been lurking over at the book blog.
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If I remember the Sportsvision summit correctly,
They are planning on releasing Field f/x to the public – but they’re a ways off from figuring out a business model that will allow them to install/operate the system.
But I could be sadly mistaken.
by Dan Turkenkopf on Dec 4, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting.
I thought there were also problems with the cameras – given how high they’re mounted to capture all the action – capturing the right action (a.k.a. something else possibly flying like a bird), but I could be wrong on that , as well.
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The cameras can pick up almost everything on the field - players, umps, stray birds.
They have to go through the data and “tag” the objects of interest (I have no idea how much of that they are capable of doing “live” and how much is post-processing).
Of note for fielding analysis – the one thing they have a hard time picking up with the cameras is where the ball lands.
A.K.A.:
It’s missing one of the most important things we’d want answered.
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Field F/X lacks a business model right now, yes.
What I think Sportvision is hoping for is that MLB Advanced Media licenses the data as an entity, which would fund the installation of the system in all parks. It would be up to MLBAM (and the teams, which collectively own BAM) to decide what to do with the data.
Hit F/X is an entirely different business model, in that individual teams contract with Sportvision for the data. Hit F/X is also much more resource intensive – it isn’t processed “live” the way Pitch F/X is, and so could not be used in products like Gameday (which is what BAM bought Pitch F/X for).
Ahhh, that clears things up.
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So what am I supposed to do with these now?




From a story about UZR I started this summer and never published.
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by Justin Bopp on Dec 4, 2010 7:49 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
:(
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Justin, this may not win graph of the week :-p
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:(
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:(
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I thought I showed you these!
Either way, every reaction other than yours has been an overwhelming “meh.”
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Nooooo
It wasn’t “meh” its just that the whole conversation was about not using UZR anymore!
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Oh!
I think we need to decide what to do with defense before I take these back to the drawing board anyway.
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