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Can the Giants' Offense Be Good?

Okay, maybe a better question is, can the Giants' offense be decent. But I thought it was finally worth looking at now that the Giants appear to be done remaking their offense, with the additions of Mark DeRosa earlier in the offseason and Aubrey Huff on a one-year deal earlier today.

The deal, which is reportedly for $3M, will presumably push Mark DeRosa to left field, with Pablo Sandoval retaining his job as the everyday third baseman. This also presumably returns Juan Uribe, who also re-signed with San Francisco on a one-year deal earlier in the offseason after a relatively big year in 2009, to the utility role that he thrived in last season. 

The Giants will now have a different starter on Opening Day at five positions, with DeRosa replacing Fred Lewis, Huff replacing Travis Ishikawa, Freddy Sanchez replacing Emmanuel Burriss at second base, Buster Posey replacing Bengie Molina at catcher, and Nate Schierholtz replacing Randy Winn in right field. There have been talks that the Giants would prefer to add a veteran catcher to start the season, as they have questions about Posey's receiving skills for the beginning of the season. Indications are that he should be around league average offensively, at the very least, next season, so if the Giants want offensive help there then he's probably the best option.

Huff and shortstop Edgar Renteria had their worst offensive performances in 2009, but with a little bit of luck, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Giants show a somewhat improved offense next season.

Star-divide

While the Giants are certainly putting a good deal of faith in young star Pablo Sandoval to anchor the lineup, it appears that San Francisco is once again going to be depending on veterans, specifically Aaron Rowand, Huff, Renteria, DeRosa and Sanchez, to get runs on the board. While none of these guys seems likely to light the world on fire next season, there's reason to believe that each of these guys could come up with a league average offensive season, maybe better.

Huff was over 30 runs above average offensively as recently as 2008, and he could benefit from a move to the National League, as well as some healthy regression in his BABIP from last season, although the decline in his line drive rate is mildly concerning. Renteria is in a similar position to Huff: not that far removed from being really, really good offensively (22.8 wRAA in 2007), but awfully bad in more recent years (-29.7 wRAA in 2008-2009). Renteria seems less likely to bounce back offensively, but he could benefit from some regression in his BABIP and HR/FB as well, and obviously the standard for offensive production at shortstop is obviously much less than at first base.

Rowand is due for a monster season in 2010, if you look at the pattern of his wRC+ from the past six years: 136, 96, 92, 131, 97, 96. Once every three years, Rowand blows up, and otherwise, he's a slightly below average hitter. Get ready San Francisco, Aaron is due to make up for $19.2M you paid him the past two years. In reality though, Rowand doesn't appear to have much downside, he's likely to maintain performance similar to what he's had the past couple seasons, at least with the bat.

DeRosa and Sanchez are similar in that they both emerged as quality regulars and line drive-happy hitters once given the opportunity, but they're vastly different offensive performers otherwise. DeRosa depends on a patient approach and good power, while Sanchez is one of the better contact hitters in the league, but his career walk rate is below 5% and his ISO is a measly .118 for his career. DeRosa saw a drop in his line drive, contact and walk rates in 2009, but he maintained his power and they aren't any major apparent changes in his approach, so there's reason to believe that he should bounce back somewhat, providing a solid OBP, decent power and pretty good defense, making him a solid everyday left fielder.

As for Sanchez, his dependence on getting balls to drop for hits is rather concerning, especially considering that his contact rate was down to 84% in 2009, the same mark he posted in his horrid 2007 campaign, and that's down from the 88-90% range that he has posted during his good offensive years. Neither of these guys is likely to return to their peak levels, but near league average performance, maybe slightly above average for DeRosa, seems like a reasonable expectation, and it's clearly one that the Giants hold given the money committed to these two.

In these five guys we see five veteran hitters who have had monster seasons in recent memory, each of them has posted a wRC+ over 128 in the past three seasons with the exception of Sanchez, who posted a 123 wRC+ while winning the NL batting title in 2006. So clearly there's some upside in these hitters, even if it's not particularly likely to be reached. It seems more likely that each of these hitters will produce around league average offense, with Huff and DeRosa the most likely to beat that mark, and Renteria and Sanchez the most likely to miss that level.

The young guys, primarily the trio of Sandoval, Posey and Schierholtz, will likely be the place where San Francisco is most likely to find impact bats. Sandoval, 23, has already reached that level, as he posted a .396 wOBA, about 35 runs above average, last season in his first year of full-time duty. Barring a major sophomore slump, something that isn't anticipated by the majority of baseball, it seems likely that Sandoval will be the lone offensive star in San Francisco's lineup.

But Schierholtz and Posey offer glimmers of hope, as their performance in the upper minors has shown. Schierholtz has destroyed AAA to the tune of a .325/.362/.569 line in 835 plate appearances, and while the walk rates are underwhelming, he's also make contact at a pretty good clip. While his scouting reports indicate that he's never really been projected as a star, given his AAA performance it wouldn't be particularly surprising to see him thrive at the major league level, and at the age of 26, he's about to enter what should be his prime. Posey is obviously the bigger name of the two, he's regarded as the best all-around catching prospect in the game, and he managed to hit his way to AAA in 2009, where he posted a .390 wOBA, albeit in limited playing time, only 151 plate appearances. But given his outstanding reputation as a hitting prospect and his track record of fantastic offensive production, it seems that Posey is in position to establish himself as San Francisco's other star position player, along with Panda of course.

I know that it's far from a pefect science, but one way of looking at it is using Baseball Musings' Lineup Analysis and CHONE projections, with a lineup of Posey, Huff, Sanchez, Sandoval, Renteria, Schierholtz, Rowand, DeRosa and the average NL pitcher. It calculates a projected runs per game based on a list of nine players and their "slash" stats (OBP, SLG),  and I used the CHONE ones as I mentioned before. The Lineup Analysis says that the lineup above would score 4.55 runs per game, a number that would have put them sixth in the NL and 17th in the majors, an 80 run improvement after the 2009 offense's showing.

Now, obviously the Giants couldn't possibly use the same lineup over the 162-game season, and CHONE projections are just that, projections. So while this is one very flawed way to look at it, it seems quite possible that if the Giants can stay healthy, they'll be able to improve to near the middle of the pack offensively. Will the Giants have a good offense next season? That's pretty unlikely. But it likely won't nearly resemble the completely punchless group that held the Giants back in 2009. So if they can maintain their great run prevention, next season could be a good year by the bay.

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Nice peiece, but could you clear something up for me...

You mention that the Lineup Analysis tool predicts 4.55 r/g for the Giants lineup, but does this account for playing time? When you plug the numbers in, it it just assuming that the nominal starters are playing 9 innings 162 games, or is there some attempt to account for the 25-30% (that’s a WAG on my part) of starts that end up going to bench players and platoon partners?

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jan 11, 2010 11:03 PM EST reply actions  

Just for the starters

It assumes that those nine players would be playing all 162 games. What’s difficult to gauge is the balance between what the team loses from injuries and playing time going to inferior backups, compared to potential midseason additions, as well as the fact that CHONE projections are far from perfect.

It’s certainly not a perfect way to look at things, but it’s a rough sketch of what that offense may be able to produce. It certainly wouldn’t light the world on fire, but a move towards the middle of the pack wouldn’t be entirely shocking.

First it was Paige, now it's Price.
You can find me at http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/

by Satchel Price on Jan 11, 2010 11:41 PM EST reply actions  

Well you need to then scale the offense back about .4 runs or so to account for bench players

You don’t have to use the lineup analysis tool either. Just use there CHONE projections, with your own playing time estimates (for the bench players also) and plug the numbers into Base Runs – that will give you the most accurate forecast.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 12, 2010 12:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Since I wanted a lazy man's way to compare apples to apples

I plugged the Giants top 8 hitters by PA into the lineup analyzer (Velez over Schierholtz, since he hit every so slightly better in the same number of PA) and it spat out 4.25 and 4.29 r/p depending on which era model I chose. This is the right lineup analyzer, right?

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jan 12, 2010 12:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I think one thing that will definitely help the Giants

is making sure to balance out the addition of a young guy like Posey by making sure to add up a bunch of older guys in their 30s. Defensively, HUgg and Sandoval should make for a fun combination on the infield corners.

At the request of no one but my bloated ego and bored mind, here are my projections for the players you listed. Three slash followed by lwts runs above/below average per 150 games (~625 PA). This is basically a souped-up Marcels — no park or league adjustments.

Sanchez .275/.310/.396, -12/150
Sandoval .311/.367/.527 +23/150
Renteria .266/.320/.380, -11/150
Schierholtz .274/.315/.413, -8/150
Rowand .270/.331/.435, +1/150
DeRosa .263/.341/.431, +5/150
Posey, .266/.330/.426, 0/150
Huff .263/.324/.443, -1/150

These projections have varying degrees of reliability — the Posey one, in pariticular, is based on so little data as to be pretty much worthless on its own. But given how close it is to CHONE’s projection, I think it’s interesting. Schierholtz is also cheated by the lack of minor league data — he should have seen more time last season. DeRosa has a more generous projection that I’d expect. But, yeah, really the only good hitter is Sandoval.

And just for fun, I have Ryan Garko at .270/.345/.437, +7/150.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jan 12, 2010 12:06 AM EST reply actions  

Ah, yes. Fun!
And just for fun, I have Ryan Garko at .270/.345/.437, +7/150

Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond. MIA List: Todd Jennings, Brian Anderson
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's

by Giant among Angels on Jan 12, 2010 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

/ smashs head on desk.

Must pay $1.50 on the dollar Sabean is a true friend.

/ Chants, " Olivio, Jacobs, Podsednik" Then smacks head with a 1 X 6. This will continue tell the pain decreases and moral improves.

by daveinexile on Jan 12, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Too low for Sanchez. he’s been well over that every year but one. Not sure why you’d think he’d drop that far.

by joethejet on Jan 12, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

They are simply computerized projections

I’m not just throwing it out there for general interest)

CHONE (arguably the best offensive projection system) has Sanchez very close to where I do:

.285/.323/.400, -11/150

ZiPS is slightly more optimistic (no lwts given, and I’m to lazy to convert at the moment:

.296 /.331/ .413

I won’t speak for the other projection systems, and mine is crude, but I regress hit rate fairly heavily, and I suspect CHONE and ZiPS regress BABIP more heavily, than, say, home run rate or walk rate.

Given his age, is it that much of a surprise? While he makes good contact (good LD%, if you trust that data), he’s still got to beat out a lot of grounders, and he’s just not that fast. And he’s aging… I think people stilla re hung up on his big 2006 when he had a .370 BABIP. That was lucky, and a long time ago.

Just in terms of lwts, if you look at his linear weights in the Batting section at Fangraphs, whle he was still decentin 2007 (+5), he was horrific in 2008 (-17), and below average in 2009 (-2). High-BABIP guys are more difficult to project, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to see a 32 year old without exceptional speed, power, or partience (since he became a full-timer, he’s never had a seasonal walk rate higher than 5.6%) coming off a a below average season that came after a terribel season as, well… not having much of an offensive future.

Maybe he will, of course, but my projection program doesn’t deviate much from what the best ones are saying.

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jan 13, 2010 12:10 AM EST up reply actions  

This Adds Up to Just -3 In Total

Which is indeed better then the Giants produced last year and is indeed virtually a MLB average offense.

by giantsrainman on Jan 12, 2010 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

not all of those guys (in fact, very few of them) will play 150

and there will be a lot of variation… this doesn’t include all the bench guys, inevitable injuries…

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jan 13, 2010 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

It defnitely makes you feel a bit better

Personally, I was not in favor of the move for Huff, but I tolerate it just because it’s so little risk (1 year deal, 2.5 million). I just don’t think after his tenure in Detroit that he has what it takes to adjust to AT&T. Furthermore, he seems to be a guy that plays well on losing teams, but struggles when he is on teams in the thick of it.

Is the Giants lineup an upgrade over last year? Yes, but there are different expectations with this team. Last year’s team was expected to finish around .500. This year’s team is expected to make the playoffs. I don’t know if the upgrades were enough (or smart enough) to meet those expectations.

I’ll try to stay optimistic though…

Supporting the Giants, Niners, Sharks, Warriors, Golden Bears and Zags since 1987

by objesguy on Jan 12, 2010 12:47 AM EST reply actions  

Personally, I expect this year's team to contend for the WC

Then let the fans down. It’s the Giants way!

"The BB's are out. The BB's are being arseholes to me." - Brian Wilson.

by hairball on Jan 12, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Summary of Article

If the stars align just right and aging players perform at a level they haven’t performed at for a few years there’s a possibility the Giants offense can be mediocre. Wow. It feels like being a Royals fan without the irrational hope part. I’m certain the pitching staff feels much better about the expected run support.

by iamrpm on Jan 12, 2010 12:59 PM EST reply actions  

Not necessarily

Full years of Posey, Sanchez, DeRosa and Schierholtz in place of what they had before should be a decent improvement. I don’t particularly like the Huff signing, tendering Garko probably would’ve made more sense, but I think that they should reasonably expect at least some improvement over last season.

Maybe not up to where I said in article, but even some improvement would go a long way considering how poor the unit was last season.

First it was Paige, now it's Price.
You can find me at http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/

by Satchel Price on Jan 12, 2010 1:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

This is the real indictment, Satch:

Huff and shortstop Edgar Renteria had their worst offensive performances in 2009, but with a little bit of luck, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Giants show a somewhat improved offense next season.

The article title’s meaning of “good” is certainly ambiguous enough, and combined with the numerous caveats provided in the closing ph, I don’t have any real problem with this assertion.

by Justin Bopp on Jan 12, 2010 2:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t see it mentioned, but expecting some improvement from Renteria seems reasonable; he played with bone spurs in his right elbow last season (and had them removed in September).

"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.

by Goofus on Jan 12, 2010 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I love stuff like this

“Sure, his injury messed him up last year, and so we can dismiss those numbers, but I’m sure the aftermath won’t effect him this season!”

(winky face)

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jan 13, 2010 12:13 AM EST up reply actions  

I said some improvement. His 66 OPS+ of 2009 wouldn’t seem that hard to improve upon.

"We're in this thing!" My adopted Giant: "Raptor Jesus" Guzman, "Sweet Jesus" Guzman and Jesus H. Guzman.

by Goofus on Jan 13, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah, I was just ribbing you

regression to the mean solves a lot of problems

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at FanGraphs.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jan 13, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

After watching Renteria in detroit for a season I have to say that bone spurs or not he just doesn’t have it anymore.

by rif23 on Jan 13, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Except that Garko is RH’ed and they already had five RHB’s starting. Having at least 3 LHB’s v RHP is a good idea.

by joethejet on Jan 12, 2010 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem is we added a lefty, but it’s Huff, and his power is dead pull…and AT&T is not very friendly to lefty pull hitters….

by Missing Barry on Jan 12, 2010 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually It Hurts Lefty Gap HR Hitters Much More

Pure pull has a short porch of 309 to 365 with yes a 24 foot wall to also overcome.

by giantsrainman on Jan 12, 2010 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

A 24 foot wall does prevent some homers, but it turns them into doubles instead of outs, so the 309 is a pretty damned good advantage for a lefty pull hitter. It’s the guys that try to hit it into Death Valley that get screwed; those HRs become outs.

by quincy0191 on Jan 13, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

THIS IS THE GIANTS 2010 STARTERS

Catcher Eli Whiteside
First Base Pablo Sandoval
Second Base Freddy Sánchez
Shortstop Édgar Rentería
Third Base Juan Uribe
Left Field Aubrey Huff
Center Field Aaron Rowand
Right Field Mark DeRosa

by jesse mays on Jan 16, 2010 4:50 PM EST reply actions  

YES THIS IS THE BEST LINE UP

WE NEED A VETERAN CATCHER WITH POP BRING BACK MOLINA

by jesse mays on Jan 16, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I would argue that the optimal lineup

is Posey, Ishikawa, Sanchez, Sandoval, Renteria, DeRosa, Rowand and Schierholtz, with a veteran catcher, Huff, Lewis, Uribe and Velez on the bench.

Honestly, I’m not sure if Huff is much of an upgrade on Ishikawa, factoring in defense and baserunnung, barring some unlikely resurgence of offensive production like the one in 2008.

First it was Paige, now it's Price.
You can find me at http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/

by Satchel Price on Jan 16, 2010 7:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

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