What would a perfect starter be worth?
A small thought experiment:
Imagine for a moment the perfect starting pitcher. And when I say perfect, I mean he's practically perfect in every way. He is guaranteed to go out every fifth game and to throw nine perfect innings, striking out all 27 batters on 81 pitches. Guaranteed. If your team has a minimally competent offense (must... resist... Royals joke) and can squeeze out one run over nine innings, you have a win. We'll call him Pedro Halladay "Three Finger" Gibson-Young. Figure that over a 162 game season, he'll start 35 times (plus his inevitable All-Star Game start) and garner you 35 wins. If your team makes the playoffs, he'll do the same thing there in two games of each series. Need someone to pitch Game Seven? He'd make a rather nice option.
Now it so happens that this winter, Pedro Halladay "Three Finger" Gibson-Young will be a free agent this winter. Imagine that you have a $100M payroll to work with. How much would you offer him on a per annum basis? Remember that you do have 24 other roster spots to fill and every million that you offer to Mr. Gibson-Young is another million that you can't spend on the rest of the team.
Got a number in your head? (Really? That much? Since we're suspending disbelief, I gave myself the ability to read your mind. And yes, I heard that too. That's disgusting. I would never do that with a lobster.)
Two questions:
- Are you paying a little extra for the Game Seven thing? Should you?
- Consider the number that you just generated. Consider numbers that are thrown around for mere mortals who do not throw perfect games every time out and are not guaranteed to even be good. Are your numbers close?
Discuss.
4 recs |
62 comments
Comments
Hmm.
If we accept the premise, I am not sure such a player would ever be worth what he could fetch on the free agent market (again, assuming you only have $100 million). You could only pay him about $90 million a year (after paying your other 24 guys league minimum). But he would be worth (by my quick and dirty calcs) at least 20 WAR. Giving him $4 million per WAR, that suggests he should be worth at least $80 million.
But a team that had this guy and all replacement level talent would win about 78 games (again, quick and dirty). That’s not very good. Some other team would probably outbid you, anyway.
But he would just HAVE to impact positively the team’s attendance. After about 10 starts of perfect games teams would be able to sell SRO without even trying. Plus merchandise, etc. So maybe he would justify it after he built up a reputation?
by Tommy Bennett on Sep 16, 2009 8:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A guy who pitched 35 games and struck out everyone would be worth about 33-35 wins
Add that to replacement level, and you’ve got an 82-84 true talent win team (meaning their distribution centers around 82-84 wins) depending on the league. Of course, 82-84 true talent wins only gets you into the playoffs about 15% of the time.
However, if you made the playoffs, he would pitch about one 3rd your games, meaning you would have the equivalent talent of about a 100 win team in the playoffs, which makes you the heavy favorite.
So, I guess you just need to give yourself a fighting chance at making the playoffs, which would mean you’d need to win about 90 games. 4.5 Mil per Win, means that you would have to save about 36 million to pay for the rest of the non-replacement guys on your team.
So, I would offer Pedro Halladay “Three Finger” Gibson-Young-Carpenter-Wainwright 64 Million. Of course there is no defined lower limit, so I would probably offer him 0 dollars :)
by vivaelpujols on Sep 16, 2009 10:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Even if you spend every dollar except $9.6M for the league minimum and a small amount for draft picks,
you should be able to amass a reasonable number of wins above replacement simply through drafted players giving you free wins.
Normal draft/int’l signing budgets are about $5M, so add that to league minimum and you should win 90 games a season.
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by PaulThomas on Sep 18, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A guy who pitched 35 games and struck out everyone would be worth about 33-35 wins
Add that to replacement level, and you’ve got an 82-84 true talent win team (meaning their distribution centers around 82-84 wins) depending on the league. Of course, 82-84 true talent wins only gets you into the playoffs about 15% of the time.
However, if you made the playoffs, he would pitch about one 3rd your games, meaning you would have the equivalent talent of about a 100 win team in the playoffs, which makes you the heavy favorite.
So, I guess you just need to give yourself a fighting chance at making the playoffs, which would mean you’d need to win about 90 games. 4.5 Mil per Win, means that you would have to save about 36 million to pay for the rest of the non-replacement guys on your team.
So, I would offer Pedro Halladay “Three Finger” Gibson-Young-Carpenter-Wainwright 64 Million. Of course there is no defined lower limit, so I would probably offer him 0 dollars :)
by vivaelpujols on Sep 16, 2009 10:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
35 wins?
It would be 35 wins more than a pitcher who loses every time, but probably only 20 or 25 more than replacement.
by lookatthosetwins on Sep 16, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can he get hurt?
Pitchers scare me. :)
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by JinAZ on Sep 16, 2009 10:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What's the point of "saving money" for other players
a WAR is a WAR is a WAR. There is no need to save money to get other players from free agency. If you have no players, and 100 mil to spend, then you’re screwed either way, you can’t field a playoff team with the 25 or so WAR you can get on the market. But whether you spend them all on one player or on 7 is irrelevant.
In a real life scenario, you will have some decent cost controlled players, and you might as well spend the rest on a sure thing, if you can get him for 80-90 mil (whatever is left over).
by lookatthosetwins on Sep 16, 2009 11:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So I guess my answer is...
100 mil – (combined salary of all players who are being payed under market value) – (league min * number of players needed to fill out roster).
by lookatthosetwins on Sep 16, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But realistically, he's worth more than market value for his war,
because its guaranteed. We calculate 4.5 mil per projected war, but it has to be more for guaranteed war. If he accumulates 25 war, he’s gotta be worth 150 WAR or something. So basically, he’s not playing on your 100 mil payroll team. He’s playing on the east coast.
by lookatthosetwins on Sep 16, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Projected WAR is an expected value, mathematically, already accounting for risk.
I’m not sure why lower variance projections would be worth more – what am I missing?
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by Sky Kalkman on Sep 17, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAR doesn't account for risk, actually
Put it this way: suppose you can choose between two players, one who has a 50% chance of playing the whole season and being worth 8 WAR, and a 50% chance of having a season ending injury opening day and being worth 0 WAR; and a player who can be guaranteed to not be injured and give you 4 WAR. Which one would you pay more for?
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by Lefti on Sep 17, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, this is the discussion we need to have.
Depends what kind of team I have. If the expectation is ~85 wins, I want the high-risk player. If I’m the Yankees and am expected to win 95 games, I want the low-risk player.
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by Sky Kalkman on Sep 17, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well my initial instinct
Was that, much like in investing, you have to pay extra for less risk, but the point you raise is valid: not all wins are created equal, so depending on the team you have, the extra value created by the extra wins offsets the increased risk. So in other words, although in my hypothetical, both players have an expected WAR of 4, in terms of playoff odds they actually have very different expected values.
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by Lefti on Sep 17, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can he hit?
If I’m an AL team and he could hit, he could also DH on his off-days. In the NL he’s in the lineup, so his 100-ish PAs also count.
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by hazel on Sep 17, 2009 2:53 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's make him an average hitting pitcher
He’ll put up a .137 batting average (which is, of course, the most important stat) with the best of them. He’s not going to be your DH in the AL unless there is something seriously wrong with your team.
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by pizzacutter on Sep 17, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thoughts so far
He creates 35 wins.
If rest of team is replacement players they generate 38 wins [(162 – 35)*0.3]
You are at 73 wins
Cost on replacement players is (400K *24) = 9.6 or say 10 million
90 million to spend and should add 17 wins to get to 90 wins for season, to give team a chance at playoffs. Through free agency the 17 wins would cost 68 million (17 * 4 million). Now you only have 22 million left to spend on the pitcher. Unless this team can get some players that are priced controlled, they would have problems getting this player and making playoffs.
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by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Sep 17, 2009 3:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting premise
Although I feel like everyone is going about this the wrong way, because nobody is taking into account the market, and that’s a key point in this discussion.
Currently the highest paid pitcher makes around ~$23M per season and the top WAR pitcher is worth about 9 WAR over a full season. So why on God’s green earth would you pay this guy $90M a season? You’re only bidding against yourself! Obviously this pitcher is worth ~15 WAR more than the next highest guy, making him a special case, but overpaying by $67M per season seems ludicrous to me.
Depending on the structure of my farm system, I’d give this pitcher (assuming he’s 29 and in his prime years) a 10Y$500M contract, making his AAV around $50M per season. That’s roughly half of my current payroll, but if my farm system can continue to provide me with low cost players for the life of that contract, it gives me the opportunity to go out and buy around 10 WAR on the free agent market, but that one Albert Pujols or three Adam Dunn’s.
Another thing to consider — if Pedro Halladay "Three Finger" Gibson-Young-Carpenter-Wainwright strikes out 27 hitters in each start, I can afford to pay a lot less for defensive players because I’m guaranteed they won’t field in a ball in 20% of the games played. I think this is a pretty important point that hasn’t been made yet.
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by fourstick on Sep 17, 2009 10:47 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I was thinking something similar.
If you’re spending $90M on the free agent market, there won’t be much difference in signing 4 $18M players or one $90 player. But it’s not really a good idea to spend $90M per season on free agents, unless you’re the Yankees.
So, you need to figure out how many wins you’re aiming for and how much money you have to spend on them. If you need to be at $2M per win, it’s not worth signing many free agents, especially a really expensive one, no matter how good.
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by Sky Kalkman on Sep 17, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question was what he'd be worth to your team
So if noone bid more that 23 mil, then take it, I was trying to figure out waht the maximum you’d pay him is. If your offense sucks really bad, he’ll create 20 or so wins, if you go and get a bunch of free agents to accumulate 20 wins, that’ll cost you 90 mil or something.
The point is that no team can be playoff caliber by only signing free agents unless the payroll is much higher than a million. If you have no cost controlled players, you might as well spend the money on him if you’re getting him for less than market value.
by lookatthosetwins on Sep 17, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not what I'm reading though
Here was the question that you asked:
How much would you offer him on a per annum basis?
Here is a follow up question:
Consider numbers that are thrown around for mere mortals who do not throw perfect games every time out and are not guaranteed to even be good. Are your numbers close?
That’s essentially what I covered above. He’s not worth more than the market will bear, in my mind, so I’m surely not going to pay him $90M a year of my payroll is only $100M. Nor would I even have that number in mind in negotiations. Surely there will be ridiculous numbers thrown at him, but paying him any more than $70M per season is going make it difficult to win enough games to get to the postseason. I can’t fathom giving him extra money for the postseason either, because I’m going to have at least 20 players on my club making at or near the league minimum in order to be able to afford him in the first place, and that doesn’t guarantee that I make the playoffs.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 30, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Furthermore
Let’s say I don’t get him…
- If he’s in my division I will probably face him no more than 5-6 times in a season, and probably fewer than that.
- If he’s not in my division I might not face him at all, and at most I’ll face him 3 – 4 times during the season, and that’s only if I see him every time I play that team in a series.
- If he’s in the other league I may not face him at all, and at most 1 time.
It doesn’t hurt my team all the much on a competitive scale to NOT get him, unless he plays for one of my main rivals, in which case I would bid him up a ton just so they have to pay more for him. You would just have to cross your fingers that you don’t face him in the postseason, but that’s simply a gamble that you’d have to take. You’re more likely to field a better ball club by not having him on the team than you are paying him $90M a year.
The only thing that screws this analysis is if there’s another team in your division that has at $500M payroll (or could have one that high). In that case, you’re kinda screwed either way.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 30, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fielding point is pretty much non-existant
Because you would only be able to stack your lineup with DH’s on days he is pitching, which you would be pretty much guaranteed to win anyways.
by vivaelpujols on Sep 18, 2009 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That wasn't really my point though...
Because you would only be able to stack your lineup with DH’s on days he is pitching, which you would be pretty much guaranteed to win anyways.
What I’m saying is that I can more afford to have Adam Dunn’s bat, even though his glove sucks, more than any other team, because I’m assured that he won’t have a field a ball in 20% of the games that he plays, lessening his defensive impact on the season overall. I think this is a slight advantage, not necessarily a tremendous one, though.
"I just wish that the late Harry Caray were still around so I could hear him mispronounce 'Kosuke Fukudome' every fukun' night" -- Dennis Miller
by fourstick on Sep 30, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Assume that replacement is ~5.5 runs per nine innings.
35*5.5 is 193 runs saved a season, which is 19 WAR. He ‘should’ cost over 100M using $6M/WAR free agency but he won’t be worth that to the team as blowing your entire budget on a 19 WAR player will get you to about the talent level of the Pittsburg Pirates
by Graham on Sep 17, 2009 2:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, he would be higher than 19 WAR
You have to use the dynamic runs to wins converter, which is ((League RA + Pitcher’s RA)/2)+2)*1.5. In this case, you get about 7 runs per win, so 193/7 = 27.5 WAR.
by vivaelpujols on Sep 17, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is the more perfect game?
81 pitches, 27 strikeouts or 27 pitches, 27 outs?
by NoahJ on Sep 17, 2009 5:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
27 Pitches
Saves your arm to pitch again the next day!
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by Lefti on Sep 17, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd still throw a ton to warm up.
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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Sep 17, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one thing noone has mentioned
is the effect he will have on your postion players. Once every five days, your defense is meaningless and your offense is almost meaningless, so you’re basically making everyone on your team average. If you go sign Albert Pujols, his bat will only really matter 80% of the time, so he probably isn’t worth his market value to you.
So if you do sign him, and somehow have some money to spare, spend it all pitchers.
by lookatthosetwins on Sep 17, 2009 9:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually, you could only ignore positional and defensive adjustments on the day's he is pitching
And you are pretty much guaranteed to win those games anyway. So that effect is minimal.
by vivaelpujols on Sep 17, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
But since they’re ignored, that takes positive value away from good players and negative value from bad players. If Albert Pujols is on your team, it would be like he sat out 35 games. If yunieski betancourt is on your team, it would be like he sat out 35 games.
The fact that you’re guaranteed to win those games is precisely what I’m talking about. It takes away pretty much all talent in 35 of your games. So Albert Pujols will only really be worth 80% of what he’d be worth to another team, where his value is important every day.
by lookatthosetwins on Sep 18, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Odd question:
Is there any possible way his WAR ends up being less than (35-replacement level)? I mean, he’s guaranteeing you 35 game wins, so that should be around what his WAR is (minus 2 or whatever a replacement pitcher could give you), right?
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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Sep 17, 2009 11:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree that he is different beast and you take his 35 wins to the side and figure out where to get the rest you need.
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by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Sep 17, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A replacement level team wins about 28% of their games
So, assuming that each pitcher mirrors that, a replacement level starter would win 28% of his starts. .28*35 is about 10, so it seems that the maximum a 35 win pitcher would be worth is 25 WAR.
by vivaelpujols on Sep 18, 2009 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I was asking.
Thanks VEP.
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by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Sep 19, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who's his agent?
If it’s Boras there’s no chance you’ll get him for under $90 million. He’ll go to Japan.
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by Andersklasen on Sep 18, 2009 12:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anohter thing to consider...
Contract structure. Like a commenter earlier mentioned, your payroll will certainly be higher than $100 million/year after a full season by Mr. UberPitcher. You’re basically guaranteed a sell-out in 20 percent of games, as well as a substantial boost in merchandise.
I’d pull a Ricciardi and offer a 10-year deal with the following breakdown: 1y=$.5M, 2y=$.5M, 3y=$3.5M, 4y=$7M, 5y=$14M, 6y=$21M, 7y=$28M, 8y=$35M, 9y=$42M, 10y=$49M.
While the actual breakdown is completely subjective, the ten-year total is $200.5 million, which breaks down to just over $20 million a season.
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by Andersklasen on Sep 18, 2009 12:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And I would offer
$201 million. Or whatever would beat yours. Still too low for the WAR provided.
by Tommy Bennett on Sep 18, 2009 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So this guy is worth less than A-Rod?
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by Warden11 on Sep 25, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent question
You have to save some money, and i’d say save it in the bullpen and offense 1/5 games the bullpen is unnecessary and will be better rested than any other in the league. Also, like someone else mentioned, extra offense is less important due to only bare minimum offense needed 20% of the time. Therefore I think you pay him 40-50 Mil a year, sign a couple other good “human” SPs @ 10 mil a year and go barebones on offense, bullpen, and rotation back end.
And i have no data to back that up.
by the-dude on Sep 18, 2009 5:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
good deal.
The guy with “no data” backs about everything I have to say. Anyway, I think it’s correct. Except that he’s worth WAY more than 50 mil. If you do get him, sign pitching help. bull pen might be a little less important, but I think generally you want good high end bullpen help, and the mop up men become less important. sign a good pinch hitter dH type wiht your extra spot.
Also, I try to look at cult movies as objectively as any other movie, but I am from minnesota and the Coen brothers do make me a little biased. I love the Big Lebowski about as much as a guy can love a movie. good call.
by lookatthosetwins on Sep 19, 2009 4:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You named him wrong.
Why not just call him 1884 Charley Radbourn? 20.3 WAR.
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by jessef on Sep 19, 2009 12:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I actually almost did
I was going to make his nickname “Old Hoss” (Radbourn’s nickname), rather than “Three Finger” but I decided that Mordecai Brown needs to be remembered more.
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by pizzacutter on Sep 21, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure about that
Monty Burns remembers him just fine
but it was a good post, by the way. I think about this kind of stuff all the time. For example, this morning, I was wondering what the value of someone who could bunt for a single as long as the bases were empty and steal second and third any time he wanted would be. He would obviously lead off every game with (essentially) a triple, but how valuable would he be if he had no other offensive or defensive skills (if he batted with runners on, he’d be an automatic out).
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by jessef on Sep 21, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Might not want him at all.
You’re basically guaranteed a sell-out in 20 percent of games, as well as a substantial boost in merchandise.
I think it would be just the opposite. Who would spend their time watching a game where not only the overall outcome is a foregone conclusion, but also the outcome of half the PAs? For me this would be the most boring time that could be spent watching baseball.
by pjensen on Sep 21, 2009 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree, but I'd want to watch on TV
Watching someone masterfully blow away hitters would be something to watch. I can’t imagine what kind of stuff/control he’d need to make this happen and I don’t think I’d get sick of watching it. The real question is, how could you find a catcher to catch him?
by lookatthosetwins on Sep 21, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought he was perfect. Let him spin the ball so much it comes back to him.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Sep 23, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ooo good thinking.
crosses the plate in the strike zone, and somehow comes back to him. Not if there is a flight path that could do that, but who knows. The other option would just be to have the catcher stand by the backstop. Or is that against the rules? It sure would piss off the umpire.
by lookatthosetwins on Sep 24, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
o_O
I’d imagined that he threw a 300 mph change up, a CHANGE UP!
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by fruitattack on Sep 25, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you wouldn't want to see this once?
You’re crazy.
"Look at me! I'm Tomokazu Ohka of the Montreal Expos!"
by jessef on Sep 21, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
especially if he was on your team
If your team had to face him… yuck
But boring, yes. Recaps will end up coming from a template…
[a photo of the left fielder joining the bullpen guys on the wii]
Pedro Halladay pitched a perfect game again against the _______ _______…
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by fruitattack on Sep 25, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what division am i in?
if i can take the NL West with 88 wins, then i’m spending just about whatever it takes: i’m at ~ 75 wins with this guy and a team of replacement-level guys, but some of my rookies will be better than replacement. odds are i’ll be able to get 13+ wins out of the other 24 guys on the roster, make it into the playoffs, and then take my chances with a guaranteed 2-3 wins in each playoff series.
if i’m in the AL East then i don’t bid up that high i’ll probably need 92-95 wins to get in the playoffs and the Yanks/Sox will bid up his price to at least full fair-market value ($100mn/year). i’m not sure i can expect to get 20 WAR from the other 24 guys, and if i don’t i’ve got little chance of making the playoffs. if i let him go to another team, i can hopefully get more than 1 WAR per $4mn by spreading the money out, looking for inefficiencies, and getting a little luck. or by spending $20-25mn/year on Mauer, Pujols, Hanley, or some other 6-8 WAR star. those guys are all bargains by comparison.
by kindred on Sep 27, 2009 1:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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