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Historical WAR Review: First Basemen

Pujols is probably the best player in baseball.  But how does he compare to the greatest 1B's of all time?  (AP Photo/Tom Gannam)

More photos » by Tom Gannam - AP

Pujols is probably the best player in baseball. But how does he compare to the greatest 1B's of all time? (AP Photo/Tom Gannam)

Today we continue our survey through MLB history, courtesy of Rally's WAR database.  Last time, we looked at catchers.  Now, we continue our march around the diamond and turn our attention to the most offensive (heh) of positions, the first basemen.  For most of MLB history, first base has belonged to the slugger: hulking men who specialize in hitting the ball hard, far, and often.  The typical first basemen has traditionally also been a poor fielder compared to other positions, though as you'll see many of the players who make our Top-14 list were at least considered above average fielders at their position.  

At the far right of the defensive spectrum, it is also a place that many players came to play in the second-half of their careers.  Here, I'm defining first basemen as those players who played first base in more games than any other position--even if we remember them for other positions (e.g. Rod Carew, Pete Rose, Ernie Banks, etc).  It does make this a very deep position, and as a result many outstanding players did not make our top-14 list (Banks, Greenburg, Killebrew, etc).  But this seemed to me to be the fairest, most objective way to assign position.

The Top-14 First Basemen, by WAR

14. Willie McCovey of the Giants, Padres, and Athletics.  Hall of Fame.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1959 22 9611 493 0.394 -78 -6 -137 65.1 4.7

If Willie McCovey had been a catcher, and had produced the same WAR total over his career somehow or another, he would rank 5th All-time ahead of Yogi Berra.  But first base is a brutally deep position, and as a result the original Big Mac just barely makes our cut.  Willie was a classic power-hitting first baseman.  Good average, took plenty of walks before it was fashionable to do so, and slugged the heck out of the ball.  He led the league in homers three times, slugging percentage thrice, OBP once, and BtRuns three times--all consecutive years.  His peak was phenomenal: from 1968-1970, he was the best hitter in baseball, posting a 188 OPS+ (1st overall each of those years) and racking up more than 22 WAR.  That's a third of his overall career value.  He was Rookie of the Year in 1959, NL MVP in 1969, and a 6-time All Star.  The only knock on his game was his fielding, where he typically cost his teams a half-win per season compared to his opposing numbers.  He more than made up for that with his bat, of course, but it cost him playing time early in his career while competing with Orlando Cepeda (Cepeda is #33 by WAR among 1B's)

Star-divide

13. Jim Thome of the Indians, Phillies, and White Sox.  Active Player.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1991 18 8960 534 0.404 -33 -3 -120 65.7 5.1

I think Thome is one of the most underappreciated players of his era.  He's been a five-time All-Star, and received votes for the MVP 8 times, and played on seven postseason teams.  But he never won the MVP, and five all-star appearances seems on the low side given his career line of 0.278/0.405/0.558.  The thing that's striking to me as I look at Thome's career numbers is how consistent he's been.  He had 10 consecutive seasons to 500+ PA's (13 total), 9 consecutive seasons with 30 or more home runs (12 total), and 11 total 3+ WAR seasons.  If there's a weak link in Thome's armor, it's probably his performance vs. lefties.  Career-wise, he has a 1.046 OPS against right-handed pitchers, but just a 0.766 OPS against lefties.  The size of his split even resulted in him getting benched in the postseason against tough left-handed starters during his early days in Cleveland.  Nevertheless, the guy's put up amazing numbers, and to my knowledge has never been linked to steroids--an increasingly rare thing for sluggers during the steroid era.  I like his chances to get into the Hall of Fame, at least eventually.  If I was including his 2009 numbers, he'd be up to 68 WAR.

 

12. Rafael Palmeiro of the Cubs, Rangers, and Orioles.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1986 20 11912 422 0.376 42 2 -189 66 3.9

If we can put aside the finger-waving hypocracy for a minute, Palmeiro had a heck of a career.  Palmeiro was a four-time All-Star, received MVP votes in ten years, received a pair of silver-slugger awards, and even won three consecutive gold gloves (though one is a classic example of the at-times meaninglessness of that award).  He did spend much of the last seven years of his career as a designated hitter (hence the huge position adjustment), but he started the most games of his career at first base--and, based on total zone, grew into a fine defender.  His rate stats aren't as impressive as others on this list, with the third-worst wOBA and the third-worst WAR/700 PA rate.  But all of that playing time adds up.  Over the middle 17 years of his career, his lowest seasonal PA total was 498, and he averaged 153 games and 664 PA over that stretch.  He had nine consecutive seasons with at least 38 home runs, and 10 consecutive (12 total) 3+ WAR seasons.  He was extremely durable and extremely consistent.  Would he have been able to do that without the juice?  Heck if I know. 

 

11. Eddie Murray of the Orioles, Dodgers, Mets, Indians, and Angels.  Hall of Fame.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/yr PosAdj WAR WAR/yr
1977 21 12687 411 0.372 61 3 -216 66.7 3.7

In a lot of ways, Murray's career is very similar to Palmeiro's.  A power-hitting first basemen, albeit a switch-hitter, with remarkable durability and consistency.  They posted very similar wOBAs (after era adjustments) and fielding numbers, and were both able to extend his career to at least some degree by playing the role of designated hitter (though not to the degree that Palmeiro did).  Murray's rate stats might just be borderline hall of fame caliber for a first baseman, but he played a lot for a long, long time, posting the 7th-most PA's in MLB history.  And he was consistent as heck, posting 10 consecutive 3+ WAR seasons from 1978 to 1987 (all but two were 4+ WAR seasons)--hence the nickname Steady Eddie.  In the end, he won the rookie of the year, was an 8-time All Star, won three consecutive gold gloves, and received votes for the MVP award 9 times, finishing in the top-5 for five consecutive years.

 

10. Albert Pujols of the Cardinals.  Active player.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
2001 8 5334 490 0.441 97 13 -67 67.4 8.8

Pujols is the second-best hitter I've ever seen, behind only Bonds.  His 0.441 wOBA ranks third among the top-100 first basemen by WAR.  He has never, ever, posted a season batted runs total below 46 runs above average (~4.6 WAA).  He has never, ever, appeared in less than 143 games, or come to the plate fewer than 634 in a season, despite coping with what must be painful injuries.  At 29 years old, he's already a two-time MVP, an 8-time All Star (out of 9 seasons), the recipient of a gold glove award, and four silver slugger awards.  But I think the key to understanding the greatness of Pujols is to appreciate his fielding.  By every metric I've ever looked at, he is a fantastic first baseman.  By Total Zone, he has the second-highest fielding per season rate of any of the top-100 "first basemen" by WAR--behind only the rather unique Darin Erstad.  His fielding above-average total of 97 runs is already the best of anyone in the top-14.  And his 8.8 WAR/700 PA rate is the highest of any first basemen in the top-100.  He's shown no signs of slowing, either.  His wOBA this season is the third-best of his career.  Pujols will eventually plateau, but in my judgement, he's already secured his bid for Cooperstown.  The question is how far will he climb.  Fangraphs says we should already add 6.5 WAR to his total for the 2009 campaign, and with two more 8 WAR seasons after this he'll cross the 90-WAR mark.  Enjoy him while he's here, because he's clearly one of the best I expect to ever see.

 

9.  Johnny Mize of the Cardinals, Giants, and Yankees.  Hall of Fame.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1936 15 7351 499 0.413 18 2 -77 70.2 6.7

Of our top-14 first basemen, Mize's 15 seasons is tied with Jeff Bagwell for the lowest total among all retired players.  The reason is that he spent 3 years in military service during World War II--the first such player to show up in our lists.  He also didn't arrive in the major leagues until his age-23 season, which is late for players of his caliber.  Nevertheless, Mize put together a monstrous career, leading the league in BtRuns twice, home runs four times, and ending with a career line of 0.312/0.397/0.562.  He walked 300 more times than he struck out, which helped him to post superb AVG and OBP throughout his career, which did include one batting title.  Fielding-wise, JAARF rates him as above-average, which is consistent with his reputation (he received the nickname The Big Cat for his fielding prowess long before Andres Gallaraga was born).  He was a 10-time all-star, received votes for the MVP award 11 times (finishing second twice in 1939 and 1940).  The war took his age-30-32 seasons.  He very well could have reached 90 WAR with that additional playing time during his prime years.

 

8.  Peter Edward Rose of the Reds, Phillies, & Expos.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1963 24 15726 395 0.364 -56 -2 -92 75.3 3.4

Rose played all over the diamond during his long career, starting at second (where he won rookie of the year), then moving to the outfield (where he won two gold gloves), then to third, and finally to first base from the time that he left Cincinnati in '79 through the end of his career as player-manager in 1984-86.  While I certainly don't remember him as such, he ended up playing more games and innings at 1B than any other position, and so I'm classifying him as a first baseman.  Rose's rate stats don't look particularly good compared to others on this list.  But even so, he was at or above Hall of Fame average performance for almost his entire career.  He just played so much, and for so long, that his counting stats are what impresses the most.  You know the 4256 number.  He is also the all-time leader in PA's, and he led the league in PA's seven times, games played 5 times, hits 7 times, doubles five times, runs scored 4 times, won three batting titles, was a 17-time All Star, and the 1973 MVP.  He was a leadoff man in an era where the stolen base was prized above all for that slot in the batting order, and yet he never stole more than 20 bases (and only twice topped 15).  But he hit for high average, took his share of sprinting walks, and showed decent power.  Pete's is the most impressive career of anyone who voluntarily agreed to a lifetime ban from baseball.

 

7.  Rod Carew of the Twins and Angels.  Hall of Fame.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1967 19 10358 473 0.388 16 1 -53 79.1 5.3

Like Rose, Carew is another guy who ends up being classified as a first baseman even though he spent much of his career at another position.  In Carew's case, he played 54 fewer games and 700+ fewer innings at second base than first.  Carew resembled Rose in other ways too--he was a high-average hitter (though Carew hit for higher average) and took his share of walks, resulting in an outstanding career OBP of 0.393.  Carew hit a combination of line drives, choppers, and bunts, utilizing good speed and superb bat control to get on base.  He won 7 batting titles, led the league in OBP four times, and was Rookie of the Year in 1967, an 18-time All Star, and an MVP in 1977 when he hit a ridiculous 0.388/0.449/0.570 for the Twins.

 

6. Jeff Bagwell of the Astros.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1991 15 9326 642 0.414 35 3 -138 79.9 6

Bagwell burst onto the scene in 1991 to win the Rookie of the Year, just a season after being traded by the Boston Red Sox in exchange for Larry Anderson.  Whoops.  Bagwell had a very aggressive swing, and always looked to me like the guy was going to fall down.  But you can't argue with the results.  He had excellent power (perhaps not completely appreciated due to his home park) and an exceptionally good batting eye (149 walks in 1999), which helped him post a career OBP of 0.408.  He also had excellent speed for a second baseman, topping 30 steals twice, and was a fine defender throughout most of his career.  He led the league in runs scored three times, and won the MVP in the strike-shorted 1994 season with a crazy 0.368/0.451/0.750 season (that's 39 home runs and 9 WAR in 110 games, folks).  Unfortunately, a bad shoulder forced Bagwell to retire at age 37.  He becomes eligible for the Hall of Fame in 2010.  I have a hard time reading the rest of the mainstream media, but I suspect that his teammate Craig Biggio will have an easier time than Bagwell despite having the weaker, albeit longer career.  Lack of association with steriods may help both of them given the current backlash against suspected users.

 

5. Dan Brouthers of the Trojans, Bisons, Wolverines, Beaneaters, Reds, Grooms, Orioles, Colonels, Phillies, and Giants.  Hall of Fame.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1879 19 7656 736 0.446 -14 -1 -2 83.7 7.7

The two biggest names from 19th century baseball are probably Cap Anson and Buck Ewing.  But Brouthers, as well as the #4-ranked 1B Roger Conner, really should be in that same picture.  In fact, at least in terms of WAR, both Brouthers and Conner vastly surpassed the defensive-oriented Ewing (our #9-ranked catcher), at least by Rally's best estimates.  For his part, Brouthers was perhaps the first great slugging first basemen.  Over his 19-season career, he led his league in batting average five times, OBP five times, and slugging percentage seven times--including six consecutive seasons from 1881-1886.  He was also a member of four first-place teams.  He was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1945 by the veterans committee.


4. Roger Connor of the Trojans, Gothams, Giants, Phillies, and Browns.  Hall of Fame.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1880 18 8834 599 0.413 82 6 2 87.2 6.9

Brouthers may have been a more dominant hitter, but his teammate on the early Trojans teams, Roger Conner, would have the longer and, according to WAR, slightly more valuable career.  Conner's best years came in New York where he won back-to-back pennants from 1888-1889 (Buck Ewing caught for those same teams).  Though he only led the league in home runs once, he ultimately smacked 138 during his career--the best until Babe Ruth's time.  More than just power, Conner also had a fine eye at the plate, and hit for high average, as his career line of 0.317/0.397/0.486 would indicate.  Also, if you believe Rally's JAARF fielding statistic for this era, he was a fine defensive first baseman, which ultimately is what brings his career value ahead of Brouthers'.  He was finally elected to the Hall of Fame by the Veterans' Committee in 1976.

 

3. Jimmie Foxx of the Athletics, Red Sox, Cubs, and Phillies. Hall of Fame.

 

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1925 20 9599 756 0.426 23 2 -82 94.1 6.9

As good as everyone to this point on our list was, it feels like we're going to another level with Double X.  He was a  three-time MVP, 9-time All Star (starting in 1933 with the first All-Star game), four-time home run leader, and led the league in offense five times by most composite measures (OPS, OPS+, Batted runs).  He appeared in three consecutive World Series early in his career, playing alongside Mickey Cochrane and Lefty Grove, and his Athletics won two of those contests.  With a 20-year career and almost 10,000 PA's, Foxx played long and hard.  In addition to his tremendous power, he also had a superb batting eye--despite leading the league in strikeouts seven times, he ended his career with more walks than K's.  Initially a catcher, Foxx's fielding numbers were above-average (for a first-baseman) through much of his career, adding to his tremendous career value.

 

2. Cap Anson of the Forest Citys, Athletics, and Cubs.  Hall of Fame.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1871 27 11292 686 0.405 59 4 7 99.5 6.2

As far as I'm concerned, Cap Anson may have invented baseball.  He played 27 seasons--Pete Rose may have had 4000 more at bats, but Anson played longer.  He broke in as a 19-year old third basemen and played until he was 45, moving to first (mostly) by his third season.  Over that time, he was an excellent player, as his 0.405 career wOBA attests (that number is corrected for era and, assuming Rally did it, park as well.  But even so, he was rarely the best in baseball--he led the league in batting average twice, OBP four times, and batted runs just once.  But when you are as good as he was for as long as he was, you'll put up some phenomenal numbers--Anson was the first player to pass 3000 hits, for example.  And because baseball changed so much during his career, there are some wonderful oddities to his stat-lines.  For example, from 1871 to 1883, he hit a total of five home runs.  In 1884, he hit 21, a year in which home run rates more than doubled.  In many ways, he set the course of baseball for much of the coming century, both in terms of his hitting prowess, and, unfortunately, his racist views toward black players.

 

1. Lou Gehrig of the Yankees.  Hall of Fame.

Debut Seasons PA Offense wOBA Fld Fld/700PA PosAdj WAR WAR/700PA
1923 17 9554 1045 0.461 2 0 -96 118.4 8.7

Usually, I'm not going to be as blunt as this.  But Lou Gehrig is the greatest first basemen in baseball history, at least relative to his era.  Frankly, it's not even close.  He was a 20-win lead in WAR despite playing in only 17 seasons (and only 14 full seasons).  He has the best wOBA (after park and era adjustments) of any of the top-100 1B's of all time (ranked by WAR).  He has the best WAR/700 PA rate of anyone not named Albert Pujols--and Pujols hasn't started the decline phase of his career yet.  The only reason that he is "only" ranked 13th all time in WAR among all position players is his position adjustment, which comes as the result of playing a position where players were, on average, relatively poor fielders.  With the bat, he could do everything--he hit for power, hit for average, and he walked prodigiously.  He played in 7 world series (the Yankees won 6 of them), won two MVP awards, led the league in OBP five times, slugging twice, batted runs four times, home runs three times, and, of course, games played seven times (while piling up a record of 2,130 consecutive games played).  And by all accounts I've ever seen, he was a grounded, level-headed, and altogether decent person.  

 

Graphically

Here's a look at five of our top-14 1B's in a classic WAR graph:

1b-trajectory_medium

Gehrig's dominance here is just enormous.  Pujols looks to be mirroring Jimmie Foxx's career, though it's hard to know how his line will look when he ultimately calls it quits.  Anson's unbelievable longevity shows up here--granted, the talent in his league wasn't what it is today, but in his 27 seasons he never posted less than 0.9 WAR.

 

1B Production over time

This graph is inspired by one that Jeff Zimmerman put together in the catcher article.  Here I'm reporting the total season-by-season WAR produced by players on the top-100 WAR list for 1B's.  Careers of players in the top-14 are specifically denoted.  (I'm only using the top-100 players because using all MLB 1B's seems to track the number of teams as much as 1B performance over time)

1b-timeline_medium

With catchers, the prime time was around the mid-70's.  For 1B's, there was a similar peak around 1970 ((McCovey, Rose, Carew, etc), but the peak around 2000 was unprecedented.

 

Top-25 1B's by WAR

 

Rank Name Debut Seasons PA wOBA Fld/700PA WAR WAR/700PA
1 Gehrig, Lou 1923 17 9554 0.461 0 118.4 8.7
2 Anson, Cap 1871 27 11292 0.405 4 99.5 6.2
3 Foxx, Jimmie 1925 20 9599 0.426 2 94.1 6.9
4 Connor, Roger 1880 18 8834 0.413 6 87.2 6.9
5 Brouthers, Dan 1879 19 7656 0.446 -1 83.7 7.7
6 Bagwell, Jeff 1991 15 9326 0.414 3 79.9 6
7 Carew, Rod 1967 19 10358 0.388 1 79.1 5.3
8 Rose, Pete 1963 24 15726 0.364 -2 75.3 3.4
9 Mize, Johnny 1936 15 7351 0.413 2 70.2 6.7
10 Pujols, Albert 2001 8 5334 0.441 13 67.4 8.8
11 Murray, Eddie 1977 21 12687 0.372 3 66.7 3.7
12 Palmeiro, Rafael 1986 20 11912 0.376 2 66 3.9
13 Thome, Jim 1991 18 8960 0.404 -3 65.7 5.1
14 McCovey, Willie 1959 22 9611 0.394 -6 65.1 4.7
15 Banks, Ernie 1953 19 10254 0.361 4 64.4 4.4
16 McGwire, Mark 1986 16 7579 0.417 -3 63.1 5.8
17 Beckley, Jake 1888 20 10325 0.374 3 61.5 4.2
18 Allen, Dick 1963 15 7242 0.409 -11 61.2 5.9
19 Killebrew, Harmon 1954 22 9754 0.387 -6 61.1 4.4
20 Hernandez, Keith 1974 17 8472 0.380 10 61 5
21 Clark, Will 1986 15 8169 0.394 0 57.6 4.9
22 Greenberg, Hank 1930 13 6061 0.420 2 56.8 6.6
23 Olerud, John 1989 17 8955 0.376 8 56.8 4.4
24 Terry, Bill 1923 14 6974 0.394 7 55.4 5.6
25 Helton, Todd 1997 12 7052 0.395 7 53.3 5.3

 

Explanation of Statistics

wOBA: The Book's statistic, park adjusted by Rally, and standardized to roughly modern baseball (0.335 league average OBP). As shown, it should be roughly comparable across all eras, except for not taking into account the higher level of competition in today's game vs. earlier decades.

Offense: "Total" from Rally's data, this is career runs above average on offense (including hitting and baserunning)

Fld/700PA: Fielding per full modern season (estimated as 700 PA instead of by innings simply for convenience)

Fld: Rally's fielding estimates, either TotalZone (TZ; Retrosheet era only) or JustAnotherAdjustedRangeFactor (JAARF), including double plays, catcher fielding, etc.  Catcher fielding before 1955 does not include performance vs. the running game.

PosAdj: Rally's position adjustments, which are era specific and based on fielding disparities.

WAR: Career WAR totals.  Note, in a few cases, I'm finding very slight differences (+-0.1 WAR or so, usually) between these data and Rally's top 500 list.  I can only assume it's a rounding issue.

WAR/700PA: WAR per full modern season (estimated as 700 PA).

Links to rest of series

C | 1B | 2B | 3B | SS | LF | CF | RF

Up next: Second Basemen!


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This WAR graph is great.

Pujols trails in career WAR, but there’s a decent (although not perfect) argument that he’s the second best 1B of all time, as of right now. His best eight years beat everyone else’s but Gehrig’s and all he has to do to beat their career trajectories is post six more season of 4-5 WAR. He’s never posted a season as low as 5 WAR in his career, making that a pretty good bet.

Love the red historical graph, too. Am I right that we should ignore the current dip because there will likely be some current players to crack the top 100 once their careers are over?

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 29, 2009 10:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I like the WAR/700 PA stat too

By that, Pujols currently leads everybody. Unless his career ends in a sudden, freakish kind of way, it’s sure to drop as he ages. But the guy’s just been unreal thus far. Gehrig looks as though he’s in another league, but might not have been if he was playing against today’s competition.

On your second point, if you look at all primary 1B’s WAR instead of just the top 100, you see a steady drop in production from 2001-2008 of about 5 WAR per season (with a bigger drop in 2004, recovers in 2005). So I think that’s real. 2008 was on par with what we saw from ~1973-1995 by that graph. I think your point about the top-100 hurting recent years in the above graph is probably valid, but the effect at least isn’t the only thing driving the recent drop you noted.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 29, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Looooove this stuff, Justin. This is possibly my favorite series on here (though I can’t wait until Negro League statistics get released [possibly next summer?!] to see things include those).

I keep trying to soak in how good Pujols has been but still feel like I undervalue him. It’s just hard to really, really not take someone for granted when they’re still around (and still producing at elite levels).

Also, thanks for the email. I’m going to do pretty much all of that. It was way beyond what i was expecting on your end, so thanks for that.

by Mike Rogers on Aug 30, 2009 1:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So what you’re telling me is that Pujols is at the “OMFG HE’S TITZ!” status? Hmmm.

http://twitter.com/FlyByKnite

by FlyByKnight on Aug 30, 2009 1:38 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So awesome

However, I think the one thing that gets lost in comparing players in different eras is the change in the league quality. It’s obvious that Pujols putting up a 9 WAR season is much harder than Gherig putting up a 9 WAR season, simply due to the level of competition around Gherig.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 30, 2009 1:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

League Quality

I mentioned as much above a few times. It’s a hard thing to get a handle on (I liked DanFox’s look at pitcher hitting as a measure of league quality a few years back), and of course is controversial.

I will say that from the perspective of value to one’s team, you could make an argument that it’s not important (maybe—replacement level might have changed more than we’re acknowledging in these data). It’s just important to “who’s the best player” arguments.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 30, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well WAR doesn't measure value either

It doesn’t include situational hitting, which obviously has real value.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 30, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But situation hitting isn't repeatable (mostly)

WAR is all about theoretical wins. Win Shares (or WSAB) is more about getting at true wins as a measure of value. But WAR is still about wins within the context of the era.

I think there are extremely compelling arguments for trying to incorporate competition level quality in this kind of measurement. But there are also arguments for not doing it. For one, given their impact on the history of the game, are we really ready to downgrade the accomplishments of players like Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb, and Eddie Collins? It might be correct to do it from the standpoint of “who is the best player” (probably is), but not necessarily from the stndpoint of value or impact on baseball history.

Anyway, I’m just rambling here. My point is that I agree with you, sort of. :)
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 30, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, sorry for harping

It’s still awesome to see Pujols and Thome on that list.

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 30, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And after reviewing this (again), I think it goes without saying that Pujols is the best all-around first baseman of all-time.

One has to wonder how amazing JT Snow would have been with Pujols like offensive ability, haha.

http://twitter.com/FlyByKnite

by FlyByKnight on Aug 30, 2009 3:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

fielding

Might be true, but I want to throw out the caveat that the fielding metric we’re using here is much better post-1955. Still not sure how good Mize, Gehrig, Foxx, etc were with the glove because we don’t have data that ae quite as good for those players. Also, we don’t have “scoop” data included here, which can be a big deal.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 30, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What makes me so happy is that probably my all time favorite player gets some serious love here

Jeff Bagwell, to me, might be the most underrated player of my generation. I loved that guy and have always tried to grow his sick gotee. I hope his greatness is appreciated and he’s rightly put in the HoF.

"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"

by blalock84 on Aug 30, 2009 7:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Clearly is deserving.

I think playing in the Astrodome made his raw numbers seem just a tad too “human,” when they were genuinely other-worldly. Hopefully he’ll get in without a fuss.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 30, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pujols

If Pujols keeps up his current pace of 67.4 WAR per 8 seasons, he would be at 117.95 WAR after 14 seasons.

If you go by the 8.1 WAR he’s averaged over the last 6 years, before this ridiculous one that he is taking part in currently, then he’d get to 116 after 14 years.

Either way, he’d be right up there with Gehrig in 3 less seasons (sort of – Gehrig really only played 14 full seasons.)

by stlfan on Aug 30, 2009 11:07 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I doubt he'll keep that pace

But, barring injury, it’s hard to see how he won’t end up at least with Foxx by his career end.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 30, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's classified as a DH.

I thought about booting him to 1B (along with a few others), but figured 1B was already deep enough with the Roses, Carews, and Banks’s.

DH’s will get their own, shortened, post.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 30, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks.

I think that’s about where he ought to be. For a few years, though, he looked like a right handed Ted Williams. I think his merely good thirties drag him down a bit from what he could have accomplished.

He was always a better hitter than Bagwell, though. I take it that Bagwell played better defense?

by Stealfirstbase on Aug 30, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have always wondered if the total WAR values should be adjusted for games in the season.

Some currently players are allowed to accumulate more WAR because there are more wins to distribute.

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Aug 30, 2009 11:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

But that’s countered somewhat by changes in league quality. And even so, 3 of the top 10 1B’s are 1800’s players.

You could just look at WAR/700PA if you wanted. ..
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 30, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You would then take the WAR/700PA times the number of seasons played

Cap would take over lead.

I am beginning to think the number of games and AB need to be taken into account. I wonder if % of league WAR should be used instead.

In 1927 Gehrig had his best year and got 12 WAR from a total of 266.3 WAR for 4.5% of the total WAR distributed to hitters.

In 1886 Anson had his best year and got 7.9 WAR from a total of 141.6 WAR for 5.6% of the total WAR distributed to hitters.

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Aug 30, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Huh

I assume that is only because Anson played in a time when their were fewer teams. It doesn’t seem like that should go to his credit

Smoltz.

by vivaelpujols on Aug 31, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They played 30 less games in 1886 (154 vice 124), the number of teams does not matter

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Aug 31, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the bigger concern...

…for someone like Anson isn’t that he’s losing credit for not playing enough games per season, but rather that he’s getting extra credit for playing in a league with such a shallow talent pool. I’m much more concerned about that problem than the issue of number of games.

If nothing else, my feeling is that replacement level needs to be adjusted upward for that era: replacement = closer to league average, because league average isn’t as far from the civilian population average performance as it is now. This would probably hurt Anson more than an adjustment like Jeff is advocating would help.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 31, 2009 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anson will be easy to debate off for talent, but how about Gehrig vs Pujols

in 2003 Pujols got 10.9 WAR for 37% of the average WAR distributed per team (29.2 WAR)

In 1934 Gehrig got 10.7 WAR 40% of the average WAR distributed per team (26.4 WAR)

On the top it would seem Pujols had the better season, but if Gehrig would have played 8 more games he probably would have done better.

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Aug 31, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

probably

But then we’re taking another step toward the theoretical.

Mize might have put up another 15 WAR had he not taken time off for WWII. But he did. And so he didn’t get a chance to put up those numbers.

This kind of thing is a potential problem with any counting stat (which WAR is, at least mostly). You could make the same arguments about Ty Cobb vs. Pete Rose and the hit record. Or Babe Ruth vs. Hank Aaron (or especially Roger Maris) and the HR record. Yes, Maris had more time to get to 61, and wouldn’t have done it had the season ended at 154 games. But, at the same time, Maris really did hit 61 home runs, and Ruth did not. Ruth only “might have” or “probably would have” done it if he’d had the extra 7 games.

And again, Gehrig played against a weaker level of competition than Pujols (segregation, etc). That, to me, is probably the bigger confound when measuring the “goodness” of a player. But I’ll grant that it’s another issue.

I really do see your point, but I think you’re basically trying to measure something different than what WAR does. That’s fine. But that doesn’t mean that WAR isn’t behaving properly.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 31, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So if next season Selig gets greedy and increase the number of games to 200 in a season.

The WAR values for players in season with increase number of games should count the same as this season with 162 games.

I am just thinking that % of seasonal WAR should be a measure of dominance. If this method is ever looked at, I hate to see how much of a boost it ends up giving Ruth. The % method would so more Era dominance, which Anson for sure did.

I have never had a problem with giving players credit for years in service when it comes to rankings.

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Aug 31, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why would the teams matter, its the amount of wins that get distributed per player that is important.

First like at the graph of the Top 100 first baseman war graph, why do you think the trend is generally up over the years.

Second lets look at these numbers (minus strike shortened years):
average pitcher and hitter WAR per team
30 teams – 162 games – 29.3 WAR
28 teams – 162 games – 29.4 WAR
26 teams – 162 games – 29.2 WAR

number of teams doesn’t change WAR

16 teams – 154 games – 26.4 WAR

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Aug 31, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Number of Games in a season

The NHL has a bigger problem, because they used to have seasons half the length of the current season. I don’t know what should happen.

by tangotiger on Aug 31, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're doing percentage of WAR per team, not WAR in the league, so you're right, you've removed the team piece.

There’s the whole fewer teams implies a higher replacement level thing, though, I guess.

by Sky Kalkman on Aug 31, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even if the replacement level increases

There should still only be 29 wins to distribute per team in 162.

Rally’s average is a little low in that the number of wins to distribute should be 81 [All teams at .500] – (162 [games in a season] *.3 [replacement level – he might use a different number here]) = 32.4 Wins

There should always be 32.4 (or 29 Wins) per team to distribute, not matter what the under lying talent is.

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Aug 31, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right, but let's say the NL was contracted tomorrow.

The top half of 1Bs would move to the AL. Guys who are accumulating 2 WAR right now would probably be out of a job.

It’s a league-quality issue, similar to the size of the population feeding into MLB, but based on the number of teams in the league.

by Sky Kalkman on Sep 1, 2009 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On that note, has any seen any work on U.S. population vs. MLB roster size

It could show how good the quality of the league is.

They would have to take into account that before integration, the talent pool was diluted.

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Sep 1, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree --- Working on some community like project to get to bottom

should have it up within week.

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Sep 1, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just did a little comp of Foxx and Brouthers

For each player I took the WAR they generate in a season and divided that by the total WAR, to get a percent for the season and then added these up.

Brouthers had a total of ~31 percentage points while Foxx had a total of ~21 percentage points.

Foxx leads Brouthers in WAR, but Brouther’s WAR was more beneficial.

I am not sure if there is a good way to determine the differences. I would be tempted to adjust WAR values to set number. It will probably work, but I am not sure about the exact math in adjusting WAR values. I am pretty sure you would need to use a multiplicative factor, but more war is additive, so not for sure.

Jeff Zimmerman - Protecting the world from RBI's and Wins from my mom's guest house.

by Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal) on Aug 31, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

TomH brought up that I may have missed Musial

The reason is that within-outfield position information isn’t very good in the BDB and so he was overlooked. He’ll be in the LF post, but perhaps should have been included here.

He ranks above Gehrig in WAR. Here’s a WAR plot comparing the two of them, plus Foxx.

I’ll still take Gehrig in his prime, but Musial leaves Foxx in the dust.
-j

by JinAZ on Aug 31, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Musial's combination of peak and longevity are pretty amazing.

Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.

by mattybobo on Aug 31, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

this list is refuted

by the absence of Mike Jacobs

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Aug 31, 2009 2:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So I don’t know why but I can’t reply to anything right now. I was hoping to reply to JinAZ about his graph and comment about Musial vs. Foxx. It’s an interesting graph and I always thought higher of Foxx, so I decided to look deeper into the issue. The more I looked into it, the more confused I became.

Basically, here’s the problem I discovered, and I’m hoping someone with more specific knowledge of the WAR database can comment. In 1932, Jimmie Foxx had an amazing year. He put up a .364/.469/.749 slash line good for a 205 OPS+. Stan Musial’s best year was 1948. He too had an amazing year, putting up a .376/.450/.702 line, good for a 200 OPS+. When I looked at these on the WAR database I found Foxx’s year came in at 95 offensive runs and 113 RAR. Musial came in at 87 offensive runs and 111 RAR. However, Foxx was only credited with 10.7 WAR while Musial was credited with 11.5 WAR for those respective seasons.

So….help. Is there an adjustment for the offensive environment making Musial’s runs more important to winning, and is it only included in the calculation from RAR to WAR? The more I think about the issue the more reservations I’m having with using WAR as any sort of indicator for how great players of different eras were compared to each other…

by Missing Barry on Sep 1, 2009 12:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The runs to wins converter might be different, yes.

In lower run scoring environments, each run is worth more, because it takes fewer of them to win a game, on average. Run environments might be different because of era, league, or home ballpark.

Wherever you’re looking at RAR, does it already include position, fielding, playing time, and other non-offense components? If not, that could also be where the discrepency’s coming from.

A good question to take directly to the source for WAR, too.

by Sky Kalkman on Sep 1, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again, not sure why I’m having this error only on this page, but I can’t reply to you Sky for some reason. I get your first point, I was just curious where that actually came into the equation. I would have guessed it came in in offensive runs, since the average would have been down, but the discrepency I found makes it seem like it’s included in the conversion from RAR to WAR.

RAR takes all those things into account. The site breaks all the different variables that total up to RAR down in seperate columns, and with a little addition I figured out they’re all included.

Anyways, I guess my relevant point to this discussion is when it comes to comparing players of different eras, is it really fair to call a player better because he has a higher WAR? It comes down to what caused the eras to be different – some of it is certainly fair to hold against players, but some of it may not be, what if one era had relatively more pitching talent and less hitting talent? It will make a good hitter stand out more and thus have a higher WAR, but does that really make him a better player or make his career better?

It means he was more valuable, sure, because his production was harder to find in his era, but does that necessarily make him better? Basically when I tried to think about reasons why Musial’s WAR could be higher, a lot of the reasons I came up with lead me to question whether the WAR really indicates Musial was better than Foxx, or if he simply was a product of his era (or maybe both?).

by Missing Barry on Sep 1, 2009 5:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It's a good point.

There are many definitions of “best”, “most value”, “Hall of Famer”, etc. and most approaches, objective and subjective, are answering one specific definition.

by Sky Kalkman on Sep 1, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah that’s kind of my thoughts, too. I like WAR, I think it definitely gives us more good information on players and helps with the comparisons, we just need to keep in mind it’s simply one way of looking at things and not the answer. There really is no single definitive answer.

by Missing Barry on Sep 1, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

other than RBI

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by devil_fingers on Sep 3, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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