Cliff Lee Headed to Philly
I love the headline from Deadspin: Cliff Lee wins the Roy Halladay Sweepstakes. The Indians accepted the same prospects the Blue Jays rejected for Roy Halladay, the the Phillies get probably the next best thing to getting the good Doc himself.
The Big Leaguer
Using Sky's handy-dandy trade value calculator, here's what we get for Cliff Lee's trade value:
According to Cot's Contracts, Lee is making $5.75 million this season, $8 million the following season. Two wins for the rest of the season sounds about right. As for next season, maybe 5.5 is high but he was worth 7.3 WAR last season and is well on his way to being worth 6 WAR this season.
Bottom line: You won't find many bargains better than Cliff Lee.
The Prospects: The Tribe get a solid surplus of prospects in return, RHPs Jason Knapp and Carlos Carrasco, C Lou Marson and "SS" Jason Donald. Before we delve into the prospects, here for the zillionth time is Victor Wang's surplus values for prospects all nicely charted out. I think it bears repetition. (Explained more here.)
| Top 10 hitting prospects | $32.5M |
| Top 11-25 hitters | $22.3 |
| Top 26-50 hitters | $20.8 |
| Top 51-75 hitters | $12.6 |
| Top 76-100 hitters | $11.1 |
| Top 10 pitching prospects | $14.2 |
| Top 11-25 pitchers | $14.2 |
| Top 26-50 pitchers | $14.2 |
| Top 51-75 pitchers | $10.8 |
| Top 76-100 pitchers | $8.7 |
| Grade B pitchers (as graded by Sickels) |
$6.5 |
| Grade B hitters | $4.9 |
| Grade C pitchers 22 or younger | $1.9 |
| Grade C pitchers 23 or older | $1.3 |
| Grade C hitters 22 or younger | $0.62 |
| Grade C hitters 23 or older | $0.45 |
- Knapp was given a B grade by John Sickels headed into the season, but has vaulted himself into BA's Mid-Season Top 50. He's just 18 year old and his ceiling is high, but he's far from reaching it. He throws in the mid to high nineties and oozes projection. He's currently on the DL with shoulder fatigue, but that was seen as more of a precautionary measure to keep innings off his arm. Let's just call his surplus value $11M.
- Lou Marson is currently in Triple-A, putting up his typical .295/.384/.367 line. He doesn't have a lot of power but takes his walks and hits for average. Marson is a top 51-75 hitter, worth $12.6M.
- Jason Donald is listed as a shortstop, but Total Zone had him at -19 at the position last year. He's 25 and hasn't been hitting this season, but last year he posted a .305/.388/.501 line. He was a top 100 prospect last year, but let's drop him to a B grade range due to his recent struggles and lack of position. $5M.
- Carlos Carrasco also was in the 51-75 range, worth $10.8M. He's had somewhat of an up and down year, but he's only 22 and has a 4.01 FIP in Triple-A. He has a 91-94 MPH fastball and a nice change-up, but lacks some polish and is still searching for a breaking pitch. He's switched from throwing a curve to a slider this year.
It's hard not to like this deal from a Philly fan's perspective, because they didn't have to part with Kyle Drabek, Dominic Brown or Michael Taylor, their best prospects. Yep, their farm system was that loaded. The Phillies just basically punched their ticket to October (if it wasn't already) and made their team stronger for next year. Oh, and they get a half decent 4th OF in Ben Francisco. The Indians get four solid prospects with decent upside -- no sky high ceiling players other than possibly Knapp who is years away --but players who have the potential to be solid to above average regulars.
So now what does J.P. Ricciardi do?
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28 comments
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Comments
Riccardi can cry
He didn’t get the deal done and now he has none of the other prospects that he could of have. He’s going to hang on to Halladay until the end of his contract. Good deal for both sides here.
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by The_Fan on Jul 29, 2009 4:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You mean
He’s going to hang on to Halladay until the end of his contract he gets fired, which should be pretty soon.
by RollingWave on Jul 29, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ricciardi blew the BJ Ryan signing, partially blew the Vernon Wells signing, and has made a couple lesser strange moves.
But he’s also done a lot of great things. The Blue Jays are a very underrated team, and would be in contention for a playoff birth in any other division.
In fact, they have as good of a shot of winning the AL East as they’ll have in the next five years next season, for which Halladay will be a key piece of the puzzle. It’s not a loss to have him around for next year. If they don’t compete, he could be dealt for something not significantly worse than what the Indians got for Lee. I don’t think it’s a mistake not to trade Halladay for that package this year.
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by Sky Kalkman on Jul 30, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
partially agree
But really, the Jays competitveness this year have a lot to do with Marcos Scutaro’s sudden break out. is that even repeatable? or Aaron Hill’s 35 HR pace? or Scott Rolen’s health? lost in the mix of the Jays is that their infield have gotten some absurdly unexpected production from their infield. While I expect Rios to bounce back some, Vernon Wells have basically played at a 3 year pace of replacement level baseball. which is amazing since he’s only getting paid like a inner circle hall of famer .
They COULD contend next year. but it would need to be a perfect storm of all their succesful guys this year repeating and their disappointment / injuries all bounce back (Wells / Rios / McGowan etc) and Travis Snider lights it up.
As for Wells, it turned out even worse than expected but really, anytime you have a contract that’s projected to worht a negative 20 million per year for 5 year. it is enough of a reason to fire even a Yankee GM. let alone a smaller market one.
JP have done some nice things. he drafted better than most people give him credit for . the Jays player development is underrated. but he simply doesn’t have the margin of error (who does really) for a Vernon Wells size problem.
I certainly think the Indians gotten the low end of expected value for Lee (but not absurdly off the charts low, just that they probably like Knapp a lot more than the average outcome you’d expect from a 18 year old top pitching prospect in A ball.) but that doesn’t mean the Jays shouldn’t try to find something that piece together better .
My general logic is that the Jays are in a division where they have 2 juggernauts with vastly more resource. and two other teams that are fairly well runed with similar resource to them. to win in such prohibitive circumstances they can’t look for average outcomes. they gotta gamble on the lottos and hope they strike some serious jackpot.
by RollingWave on Jul 31, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder, though...
Is one playoff trip out of ten years and a bunch of 75 to 85 win teams preferable to mostly 85 to 90 win teams? I mean, all teams and fans are hoping for a world series, but given that it’s going to be really really tough in that division, might the “Buffalo Bills approach” bring more consistent hope and more fun at the ballpark?
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by Sky Kalkman on Jul 31, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's
a reasonable point. but the Jays have already missed the playoff for 15 years. and at this pace they are highly unlikely to make it in the next 5 too.
and the NFL’s results are much less predictable by nature than the MLB though.
so yeah, the question is wehter you think trading a potential playoff berth or two is worth risking for a few really bad years
by RollingWave on Jul 31, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would imagine Riccardi didn't make this deal
because none of those guys like playing baseball.
Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures
by averagegatsby on Jul 30, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The next step in the "algorithmic" process is to convert everything to playoff probability.
For example, Lee’s 2 wins over replacement will increase the Phillies’ playoff odds 7% this year, and, say, 5% next year. The prospects will have some expected future playoff probability added. Let’s say it’s 10 percentage points total. To the Phillies’, that’s a win. To the Indians, it’s a win, too, because Lee’s playoff probability added is probably only the 5% next year. Now, all those numbers need to be altered for cost of contract, too, but that’s the general idea.
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by Sky Kalkman on Jul 29, 2009 5:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cant imagine...
…how you could make a fair evaluation, seems impossible to assign values to the unknowns – playoff revenue, economic situation in the next few years, % of value added by the purchased player to the contending team….
btw already the prospect value chart is pretty questionable considering we are rating the players by the opinion of one person (Sickels) and an opinion thats outdated too
by viktor06 on Jul 29, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with all of that to varying extents.
Repeating Victor Wang’s study with combined Sickels/BA/Goldstein/whomever ratings would be awesome.
As for expected future playoff probability, my idea is to use something like the current average of Justin’s power rankings and pre-season PECOTAs, and regress towards the expected record of a team’s payroll, with more regression the further out we go.
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by Sky Kalkman on Jul 30, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll have a post on that tomorrow morning
I’ll take a look at world series odds, playoff odds in future seasons and other things.
F*** Billy Beane... actually, I kinda like Holliday
by vivaelpujols on Jul 29, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
great way of looking at it
and another reason/incentive for a team like the Jays to deal players like Halliday now, it makes much more sense to build that future playoff value when their present playoff value is very low.
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by blalock84 on Jul 29, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Potentially dumb question
Why do you have the salaries as 7 million and 15.8 million in the excel table?
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by fetch9 on Jul 29, 2009 7:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Woah, didn't even see that.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 29, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it's not...
And he’s not getting paid that much next year either.
@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 30, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that using 4.5 mil/WAR is inaccurate
$4.5 million is the value of a win on the free agent market. But teams aren’t guaranteed to spend their extra money on the free agent market—they might use it to sign young guys, who are substantially cheaper than free agents. Therefore, the correct value should be more like $2-3 million per WAR (whatever the average salary per WAR is rather than the average free agent salary per WAR).
by Alex Krolewski on Jul 29, 2009 8:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But you can't just go out and buy young guys
Well, except for foreign players.
You either need to draft them or acquire them by trade. And then they’re often years away from ready.
When doing this analysis for a player, you’re looking at how much it would cost to replace his production – which generally means buying it on the free agent market.
by Dan Turkenkopf on Jul 29, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To use the actual example of Cliff Lee:
The Indians lose 7.5 WAR by trading Lee.
The Indians gain $10.3 million by trading Lee.
BUT the Indians will, on average, spend the $10.3 million at a more efficient rate than $4.5 million/WAR—-part of it will be spent on free agents, and part on drafting and developing prospects. Yes, these prospects are years away from contributing, but so are the prospects that Cleveland received from Philadelphia.
Actually, a marginal win acquired by scouting and developement may cost more than $4.5 million. I haven’t seen a study that attempts to calculate this cost.
by Alex Krolewski on Jul 29, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The marginal cost of a "scouting win" is not measured in dollars, but in draft picks
Every team has a certain fixed pool of picks; anything which requires the use of additional draft picks is a form of opportunity cost.
Average out the results of draft picks and you’ll get a certain average number of wins which a team ought to be producing from their farm system per season, in the form of “free” WAR for players with less than 3 years’ service time and discounted WAR for players in years 3-6.
A check on whether this number of wins is correct is to see if a team with an average payroll, buying free agents at average prices, and adding in that average number of free wins, would finish with about 81 wins.
The average team spends, IIRC, about $85M a season, but $10M of that is mandated (25 players, $400K minimum salary). The other $75M buys wins at $4-4.5M a pop, i.e. around 17-19 wins above replacement. Since a replacement level team would win about 50 games, and a team with an average payroll and no draft picks would win 67-69, I hypothesize that an average farm system should produce in the neighborhood of 12-14 wins above replacement per season.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Jul 30, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your general point
“The marginal cost of a ‘scouting win’ is not measured in dollars, but in draft picks”
Can’t teams, by going over-slot (and thus investing more money in the draft) get more WAR out of the draft? This has sort of become the new market inefficiency, exploited by richer teams such as the Red Sox, who pick 25th-30th every year but nevertheless manage to get a good player by promising a huge bonus.
by Alex Krolewski on Jul 30, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"they might use it to sign young guys"
I phrased this badly. What I meant is that they might put the money into drafting, player development, or signing foreign free agents.
by Alex Krolewski on Jul 29, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or extending young players at cheaper rates.
I think there’s something to that. Needs to be explored.
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by Sky Kalkman on Jul 30, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOVE this trade for the Fightins. Just spectacular stuff by Ruben Amaro.
by Tommy Bennett on Jul 30, 2009 12:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lou Marson is currently in Triple-A, putting up his typical .295/.384/.367 line. He doesn’t have a lot of power but takes his walks and hits for average. Marson is a top 51-75 hitter, worth $12.6M.
Wha-hooza-ka-what?
Man had a C+ coming into the season prior to hitting like Cliff Pennington this year. You could make a case for keeping him at C+, maybe moving him up to B- if you’re feeling very bullish, but any further than that is crazy talk.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Jul 30, 2009 1:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Marson looks to be a very nice backup C. but he’s not a top 100 guy by any stretch of the imagination , he has solid value when teams are still using the Sal Fasano’s of the world as backup. but that’s bout it.
The Yankees basically have an exact clone of Marson in Francisco Cervelli. great defence. can hit the ball, walks, (until this year anyway) and can’t hit for a lick of power.
by RollingWave on Jul 30, 2009 3:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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