Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Zack Greinke

If every single one of my posts for the rest of the season talked about Zack Greinke, it would hardly do him justice. Greinke drew a lot of attention earlier in the season for an earned-run-less streak which seemed to span several ice ages, but when it melted away he faded back into relative national obscurity. It's hard being a Royal sometimes, and Greinke probably suffered from being one of the few bright spots in baseball's most arid talent desert when Joe Maddon made his choice of starting pitcher for Tuesday's All-Star Game in St. Louis. On top of the ignominy that comes from playing a team which willfully traded for both Mike Jacobs and Yuniesky Betancourt within the span of nine months, Greinke remains essentially anonymous for another reason. After bursting onto the scene as one of baseball's brightest young pitchers in 2004, his career began foundering when Greinke began suffering from a complex psychological disorder which I shall uncharitably call 'the crazies'*. His inspirational comeback last year paved the way for his reestablishment as an impact played this year... and he's succeeded far beyond anyone's expectations.

Star-divide

A few years ago, I read an article by a friend of mine on evaluating pitchers, which listed run values for events theoretically under a pitcher's control (i.e. your standard K/BB/HBP/HR plus batted ball profile). Towards the end of the piece, Dave lamented that there was no statistic that could complement Tom Tango's FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching) as a quick measure of pitcher value by looking at batted ball profiles. As these were the halcyon days of studenthood, I had a lot of free time, and so I set about to correct this. The result is tRA, which I've discussed previously here and here (the latter is for those who'd prefer less mathematics in their everyday lives). In case anybody hasn't heard of tRA before and doesn't feel like clicking on links, I'll quickly summarise below:

tRA is a linear-weights based pitching metric which takes a variety of events which are under more or less sole control of the pitcher, finds the average run and out value of said event across the league, and applies those numbers to an individual pitcher after park adjustments. This results in a number on the runs/9IP scale, which is slightly higher than ERA scale but makes a lot more sense.

Anyway, tRA and its derivatives are my prefered metrics for pitcher evaluation, so expect to see it mentioned reasonably frequently in these pieces. Any manipulation that's done using FIP can also be applied to tRA, meaning it's relatively trivial to find tRA versions of pRAA (pitching runs above average) and WAR (wins above replacement). And by both pRAA and WAR Zach Greinke's having one of the best pitching seasons in the past decade.

Greinke's 6.2 WAR at the All-Star Break puts him on pace for an 11.6 win season. For reference, here is a list of all of the players worth more than 10 WAR since 2002: Barry Bonds, Barry Bonds, Barry Bonds, and Adrian Beltre. Granted, some pitchers come extremely close, but since Greinke's looking at more than 11, it's a reasonably fair cutoff. Since we've started measuring this sort of thing, nobody's managed to do what Greinke's on pace for, which would imply that it's probably comparable to the great Pedro Martinez seasons of the late 90s.

How good is he compared to his peers? Over the last few days, I've been hearing some AL Cy Young talk, generally debating the merits of Roy Halladay, Felix Hernandez, and Zack Greinke (Verlander deserves to be in the conversation too, but he generally isn't). Comparing them with straight up seasonal stats isn't close. Greinke's pRAA of 43.4 wipes the floor with Hernandez's (25.1) and Halladay's (22.0), and the tRAs aren't close either. Are the other two any more consistent than Greinke? We look at game-by-game tRAs of this AL 'Big Three' in the following graph:

Figure 1: 2009 game-by-game tRA for Zack Greinke, Felix Hernandez, and Roy Halladay.

The dashed line on the above graph represents the league average pitcher. Greinke has had exactly one start in which he performed worse than a #3 pitcher. One. Felix Hernandez has three, Roy Halladay has four. But such a chart does not tell the entire story. Imagine cherry picking the best games of the season for each pitcher. Over some number of starts, one of Felix and Halladay, dominant pitchers in their own rights, has to have been better than Greinke, right? Er, no, actually...

Figure 2: 2009 game-by-game tRA for Greinke, Herndanez, and Halladay in ascending order.

You can take Halladay's starts, arrange them in order from best to worst, and none of them beat Greinke's equivalent. Doing the same thing with Felix yields exactly the same result (but it's a little closer at the back end). This result is pretty spectacular, and goes to show just how dominant Zack Greinke has been this year. Between #1 and #18 on that graph, Greinke has Halladay and Hernandez beat. For each start the other two have made this year, Zack Grienke has made a better one. Wow.

As for Cy Young voting and All-Star Starter status... taking both as pure statistical exercises leads to the conclusion that Greinke's only actual competition for the honours would be if Halladay and Hernandez somehow combined into one super-pitcher. Zack Greinke's been the best pitcher in the American League this year and it hasn't been particularly close. I just hope he gets some recognition for it at the end of the year. He'll need a good defence and offence to keep his ERA down and wins high enough to compete with the other candidates and oh god they just traded for Yuniesky Betancourt so nevermind.

*NB: I said I was being uncharitable, so there's no need to complain further about my world choice.

Comment 28 comments  |  7 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Thanks for reminding Royals fans why we shouldn't drink Drain-O until the season is over

Rec’d and ReTweeted

I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.

Can't get enough of me? Check out my Twitter feed.

by Matt Klaassen on Jul 17, 2009 12:12 PM EDT reply actions  

I'll re-write the article again to be compatible with your sense of humour:

Zach Greinke is a pitcher. He plays for the Royals. Here are some graphs.

by Graham MacAree on Jul 17, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

And here we go.

This is why I often find myself avoiding Lookout Landing. Your “humour” is condescending and derogatory. Anyone that doesn’t get it is ostracized and dismissed as unreasonable. A clinical psychologist takes issue with your characterization of a mental disorder and your response is to deflect from the words you used and deride anyone else that disagrees with you.

It’s possible to have a conversation about this rather than meaningless retorts to try and make me look stupid. Instead, you resort to taunting and juvenile jabs.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

If that’s the case, you’re responding to my comment to Matthew because?

It’s unfortunate when your poor choice in words and humour distracts from how articulate and poignant your writing (articles or comments) can be. You don’t have to belittle others to get your point across but that seems to be your go-to method of communication.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I agree with this.

Having exchanged emails with Graham for a while, his sense of humor is unique from most people, but he’s never came across as hateful in any manner.

It’s a matter of opinion on whether he crossed a line or not, but I think most of us can agree that letting one phrase take away from a pretty good post otherwise is a shame.

by R.J. Anderson on Jul 18, 2009 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

How is suffering from a severe mental disorder

not the definition of crazy in your mind?

by Matthew on Jul 17, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

How are you defending a remark that the author himself calls "uncharitable"?

I’m not sure why something that gets noted by the author himself as inappropriate a) makes it into the post and b) gets defended by third parties.

I’m not going to be suckered into debating what the definition of “crazy” is. That’s not the phrase he used and the context was certainly not one of clinical definition.

Future Redbirds - tracking Cardinal prospects for Cardinal Nation

by azruavatar on Jul 17, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Speaking as one that has (mostly) recovered from (quite serious) social anxiety disorder

I can say with a fair amount of certainty that “the crazies” is fairly apt.

If we as a society could learn to be offended by things that are actually offensive and take in good humor the things that are merely in poor taste, we would find ourselves in a much better place.

by Aaron Campeau on Jul 18, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The numbers here are supposed to be pRAA's, right?
Comparing them with straight up seasonal stats isn’t close. Greinke’s 43.4 wipes the floor with Hernandez’s (25.1) and Halladay’s (22.0), and the tRAs aren’t close either.

@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.

by bdalebs on Jul 17, 2009 6:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Whoops. Yes, those are pRAAs.

That’s what I get for inserting stuff after already writing the paragraph

by Graham MacAree on Jul 17, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nah, I got it, just making sure.

Not many stats can be in the mid 40’s and 20’s, so it has to be some sort of runs.

@bs_uf15bosox9be:OverTheMonster-ALLERGEN WARNING:May contain PB.

by bdalebs on Jul 17, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good article Graham, love the figures

Once you actually see how great of a season he is having in graphical representation…..

it just makes you shake your head!! Amazing.

Just hope the Royals can give him just 3-4 runs of support once in awhile.

soon to change name to, "The Not So Curious Case of Benjamin Bratt"

by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Jul 17, 2009 6:07 PM EDT reply actions  

My take.

- I believe Graham was being humorous and does not disrespect Greinke’s psychological struggles or social anxiety issues in general.
- I believe Graham was looking for a lighter way to say Greinke was in a bad place but has mastered his demons to a significant degree.
- I believe part of the “lighter way” was the asterisked line “I already said I was being uncharitable.”
- I don’t believe that qualification, however, should get anybody out of the first thing they said. It’s like saying “No offense, but you’re an idiot.” There’s still offense in there if offense was meant.
- I think if you give Graham the benefit of the doubt here, it’s not a big deal.
- I think if Graham had given people with the opposite interpretation the benefit of the doubt here, this wouldn’t have become a big deal.

And most importantly:
- Whether it was offensive or not, it obviously detracted from the article and we’re no longer talking baseball or about Zach Greinke’s talent in the comments. While we’re trying to encourage more commenting and discussion here at BtB, this isn’t the type we want. (Well, maybe a little bit about the issues of social anxiety disorders, but not in this squabbling style.)

So, going forward in these comments here, let’s have two things. One, comments about Zach Greinke as a pitcher. Two, comments about social anxiety disorders, but not framed in a “Graham was wrong”, “stop overreacting”, or an ad hominem way. Going back to that type of discussion will get your commented deleted.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 18, 2009 9:55 AM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

We use numbers and stuff.
Community Guidelines
Why be a member?

Follow us on Facebook!

Follow us on Twitter!

SaberGraphics

Yahoo_full_count

MLB Daily Dish

Get the latest MLB Trade Rumors, Transactions, and News at MLB Daily Dish!


Managing Editor:

Jbopp-kc_small Justin Bopp

Columnists:

Adam_small adarowski

Dme_small Satchel Price

Closeup4_small J-Doug

Carlosicon_small Julian Levine

Billy_and_daddy_4th_of_july_small Bill Petti

Featuring:

Dayton_small Jeff Zimmerman

12475953_small Jacob Peterson

Recent_pic_pg_small Patrick Gordon

Btbpro_small Dave Gershman

Me_small Bryan Grosnick

229331_10150183361996591_674441590_6760167_6637860_n3_small Lewie Pollis

Img_3830_small David Fung

30472_1481067225243_1190689185_1381415_997334_n_small Glenn DuPaul

1mnvxku7_small joshuaworn

Set_small MattFilippi18

Photo0011_small Nathaniel Stoltz