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BtB Power Rankings: Through Tuesday, June 30th, 2009

Welcome to our weekly ranking of all the MLB teams!  In this ranking, we use aggregate team hitting, pitching, and fielding statistics--not team wins, losses, runs scored, or runs allowed--to evaluate the performance of teams to date.  You can think of the estimated winning percentage (eW%) below as how we'd expect teams to fall out if we threw teams with these aggregate statistics into one big league and let them battle it out for thousands of games.

The table is sortable if you click in the header.  All data are park-adjusted when possible.  A legend is below the table, followed by commentary. There is also a table comparing actual vs. expected run scored and run allowed totals, as well as actual vs. expected winning percentages.

Rank Chg Team wOBA eRS tRA tRns Fld eRA eW%lg LgAdj eW%
1 0 TB 0.363 463 4.76 368 21.9 346 0.638 11.0 0.662
2 +2 NYA 0.361 443 4.85 366 1.0 365 0.595 10.6 0.620
3 0 BOS 0.344 400 4.24 321 -14.5 336 0.583 10.7 0.610
4 -2 TOR 0.339 401 4.50 356 4.8 351 0.563 11.0 0.590
5 0 LAN 0.335 387 4.17 328 11.8 316 0.594 -10.8 0.565
6 +7 CHA 0.322 331 4.11 310 -6.8 317 0.519 10.7 0.550
7 -1 DET 0.330 350 4.86 364 19.2 345 0.507 10.7 0.536
8 -1 COL 0.326 350 3.99 302 -1.7 304 0.565 -10.7 0.535
9 -1 MIN 0.334 379 4.79 370 -6.5 377 0.503 11.0 0.531
10 -1 TEX 0.333 356 4.97 376 18.5 357 0.499 10.6 0.527
11 0 LAA 0.339 371 5.05 372 -6.2 378 0.490 10.4 0.517
12 -2 CLE 0.337 397 5.15 400 -19.7 420 0.472 11.0 0.499
13 +1 KC 0.315 306 4.22 314 -14.7 329 0.467 10.6 0.498
14 +4 SEA 0.317 316 4.77 361 17.3 343 0.462 10.6 0.492
15 0 BAL 0.331 357 4.85 365 -23.5 389 0.460 10.7 0.487
16 +1 MIL 0.334 369 4.93 372 13.9 358 0.514 -10.7 0.486
17 -1 PHI 0.340 381 5.09 379 4.4 375 0.508 -10.3 0.482
18 -6 NYN 0.332 362 4.59 345 -14.9 360 0.502 -10.6 0.474
19 +3 ARI 0.312 323 4.21 329 6.4 322 0.501 -10.7 0.470
20 +3 PIT 0.325 342 4.92 369 21.9 347 0.493 -10.7 0.464
21 -2 STL 0.324 343 4.53 352 4.2 348 0.493 -11.0 0.463
22 -1 ATL 0.315 319 4.10 312 -15.2 327 0.488 -10.6 0.458
23 +1 OAK 0.304 288 4.40 335 -7.1 342 0.422 10.6 0.452
24 -4 CHN 0.308 296 4.27 315 5.5 309 0.480 -10.3 0.449
25 +3 SF 0.306 287 4.30 322 8.7 313 0.461 -10.6 0.429
26 0 FLA 0.323 350 4.74 373 -15.0 388 0.452 -11.0 0.424
27 0 HOU 0.322 330 4.87 369 -1.9 371 0.445 -10.4 0.417
28 -3 CIN 0.310 304 4.80 363 19.8 343 0.444 -10.4 0.414
29 0 WAS 0.328 354 5.28 393 -22.8 416 0.422 -10.4 0.396
30 0 SD 0.318 320 5.05 383 -8.9 392 0.404 -10.6 0.377

 

Star-divide

Offense = wOBA (park-corrected), eRS (estimated runs scored; wRC from FanGraphs, then park adjusted)
Pitching = tRA and tRns are a home-brew version of Graham MacAree's statistic.
Fielding = Fld: average of bUZR (from FanGraphs) and THT's batted balls statistic (converted to runs)
eRA (estimated runs allowed) = Pitching - Fielding
eW%lg = estimated winning percentage within the specific league (AL or NL)
LgAdj = league adjustment (bonus to AL teams, penalty to NL teams, because the AL has superior level of play)
eW% = estimated winning percentage if all teams were in one league (after league adjustment)
Methods provided in more detail in the first post in this series

Team Leaders (asterisks indicate teams improving in specific ranking):

American League
Offense (wOBA): Rays, Yankees, Red Sox
Pitching (tRA): White Sox, Royals, Red Sox
Fielding (Fld): Rays*, Tigers*, Rangers

National League
Offense (wOBA): Phillies, Dodgers, Brewers*
Pitching (tRA): Rockies, Braves, Dodgers
Fielding (Fld): Pirates*, Reds, Brewers

"On Paper" Playoff Leaders (asterisks indicate new leaders):

American League: E=Rays, C=White Sox*, W=Rangers, WC=Yankees*
National League: E=Phillies*, C=Brewers, W=Dodgers, WC=Rockies

This Week's Big Movers:

The Rays are starting to build a substantial lead in the power rankings, despite having the three next-best teams all in their division.  It's showing in real life too-they're just four games behind the Red Sox and gaining.  They've won 9 of their last 10, and are currently the only team expected to have a 0.600+ winning percentage in their own league (eW%lg).  It's gratifying to see a team the power rankings has liked so well all season long finally showing some progress in the actual standings...maybe we're onto something here.

The White Sox have been almost as hot, and it shows in the power rankings.  They've soared up to 6th place overall with an outstanding week (winning 6 of their last 7), and leap-frogged over the Tigers to capture the on-paper lead in the AL Central (four games back in reality).  They have had the best pitching in the American League this year, and that's the main reason that they are where they are.

My poor Reds are continuing to fall, despite the return of Joey Votto, outstanding fielding, and actually improving their expected winning percentage vs. last week (0.409 last week, 0.414 this week--that's life!).  They swapped places this week with the Giants, which should make a lot of the conspiracy theorists from earlier in the season happy.

Speaking of the Reds....the NL Central is kind of sucky.  The Brewers (16th) are a respectable team, especially in the NL, but after that we have the Pirates(!) at 20th, the Cardinals at 21st, the Cubs at 24th, as Astros at 27th, and the Reds breaking up the rear at 28th!  Yikes. 

Actual vs Expected Performances

Below are actual vs expected winning percentages, runs scored, and runs allowed.  When a team's ranking deviates substantially from their actual performance (e.g. the Giants), this table will hopefully help you see why.

Rank Team eW%lg PythW% TrueW% TrueRS ExpRS TrueRA ExpRA
1 TB 0.638 0.613 0.557 446 463 353 346
2 NYA 0.595 0.572 0.579 423 443 365 365
3 BOS 0.583 0.593 0.610 389 400 319 336
4 TOR 0.563 0.544 0.519 383 401 349 351
5 LAN 0.594 0.613 0.628 388 387 303 316
6 CHA 0.519 0.495 0.506 330 331 334 317
7 DET 0.507 0.531 0.558 368 350 345 345
8 COL 0.565 0.540 0.532 360 350 330 304
9 MIN 0.503 0.534 0.506 373 379 347 377
10 TEX 0.499 0.525 0.539 359 356 341 357
11 LAA 0.490 0.522 0.560 385 371 368 378
12 CLE 0.472 0.457 0.392 403 397 440 420
13 KC 0.467 0.422 0.434 305 306 361 329
14 SEA 0.462 0.473 0.513 305 316 324 343
15 BAL 0.460 0.435 0.455 356 357 408 389
16 MIL 0.514 0.513 0.545 368 369 358 358
17 PHI 0.508 0.528 0.527 383 381 362 375
18 NYN 0.502 0.484 0.487 342 362 354 360
19 ARI 0.501 0.447 0.403 325 323 364 322
20 PIT 0.493 0.510 0.468 344 342 337 347
21 STL 0.493 0.510 0.519 353 343 346 348
22 ATL 0.488 0.471 0.474 313 319 333 327
23 OAK 0.422 0.449 0.421 327 288 364 342
24 CHN 0.480 0.499 0.486 295 296 296 309
25 SF 0.461 0.539 0.553 308 287 282 313
26 FLA 0.452 0.469 0.506 369 350 394 388
27 HOU 0.445 0.459 0.480 316 330 345 371
28 CIN 0.444 0.479 0.493 313 304 327 343
29 WAS 0.422 0.372 0.293 326 354 427 416
30 SD 0.404 0.382 0.447 316 320 407 392

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NL East

PHI-17
NYN-18
ATL-22
FLA-26
ATL-29

Does that make it the worst division in baseball by this metric?

by Tommy Bennett on Jul 1, 2009 9:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I guess not

trails the NL Central in both the geometric and arithmetic average of the rankings

by Tommy Bennett on Jul 1, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So, according to this, the Red Sox need to score more runs in order to stay in 1st place, or have an amazingly good pitching/defense.

Also, only two NL teams in the top half. That is INSANE.

OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 9:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The placement of the NL is completely due to the league adjustment

Which although I know has been explained still seems way too big to me.

by Dan Turkenkopf on Jul 1, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure it's right.

It matches up to interleague disparities as well as how league differences are handled in WAR (which, I think, are based largely on mgl’s study of players swapping leagues).

I’m really open to suggestions on how else to handle it. But so far all I’ve gotten is critiques without helpful (i.e. grounded in data) suggestions.

If folks don’t like it, of course, they can always click on the eW%lg column and get a ranking that ignores league differences.
-j

by JinAZ on Jul 1, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe use the past 5 years Pythag record of Interleague?

OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's essentially what I did

I just used real records and not pythag. I doubt it matters over that many games.

See these two posts for more:
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/5/27/889905/btb-power-rankings-through-tuesday
(see methods in that one^^)
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/5/31/890800/graph-of-the-day-interleague
-j

by JinAZ on Jul 1, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really was just throwing out a random idea.

I have no clue how you could go about doing it. Maybe find what the average RAR/PA or IP?

OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But you need to measure the interaction between leagues somehow.

AL vs. AL and NL vs. NL doesn’t really help at all. It’s like comparing MLB to Little League. There’s one win handed out for every game, but we know MLB is better. Two ways to prove it are to have an MLB team play a Little League team or to have one player from either league play in the other league. (Sounds fun, actually.) I can’t think of any other methods of direct comparison of league quality that would apply to AL vs. NL, but suggestions are handy.

RAR doesn’t work because your league average or league replacement rates are defined to be the same, unless you have reason to adjust them.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 1, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would be kinda fun, assuming you meant having an NL and AL player swap.

I don’t really think having Roy Halladay throw a bazillion perfect games against 10 year olds is a cool idea.

Shouldn’t the average baseline for RAR be what helps seperate the NL’s skill from the AL’s? I mean, it would show the difference in skill because I would assume the AL’s average RAR is higher than the NL’s.

OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 2, 2009 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

also

fwiw, even without the league adjustments, only 6 NL teams are in the top 15. COL and LAN are outpacing everyone else. -j

by JinAZ on Jul 1, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In your league adjustments, do you account for the fact that AL teams are playing NL teams a small percentage of their schedule?

So instead of a 5 win adjustment it might only be a 4 win adjustment because 1 win should come directly from winning more games?

@

2009 interleague info. AL won 137 games and lost 114. That pro-rates to a 88.5-73.5 record over 162 games. By run differential, their lead pro-rates to 90-72.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 2, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

I don’t adjust for that. But I’m a bit confused where you’re going with it.

I think the only time that would matter is in the eW%lg numbers, which you’d expect would, on average, miss high for NL and miss low for AL. Maybe. Actually, as I think about it, they should still match up, because AL teams will get better hitting, pitching, and fielding numbers than NL teams because of interleague.

The league adjustments are intended to put everyone in the same league and predict winning percentages under those conditions, not to predict actual winning percentages per se.

Way 1 of figuring—if you let AL teams play NL teams, they win by a certain winning percentage. The runs adjustment I used is enough to cause a 0.500 AL team to beat a 0.500 NL team by that winning percentage. … and so, ignoring the potential rules disparities in that match up (and I’m not convinced that those actually matter), the run adjustment should reflect the true talent difference between the leagues.

Way 2 of figuring—if a player in the AL will put up a half-win less production than they would in the NL, and you extrapolate that to the team level (and convert to runs), you get the run adjustment I’m using. Again, this reflects true talent differences between the leagues.
-j

by JinAZ on Jul 2, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm saying the adjustment might be just a bit too extreme.

Not accounting for the interleague games would make the AL teams look a bit too good relative to NL teams. Sort of double counting. You’re giving AL teams a bump because they have to play other AL teams. But they don’t only play AL teams because of interleague. So if they play 80% of their games against AL teams, they should get 80% of the implied adjustment.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 2, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me say it another way to see if I understand you

AL teams are getting an inherent boost to their hitting/pitching stats by playing a smallish percentage of their games vs the NL. So I’m double-dipping, because I’m giving them some of that bonus again in the league adjustment.

I’m about 50% convinced that’s true. If I was only basing the adjustment on interleague records, I’m with you. But I’m not as convinced that the WAR-based adjustments suffer from the same problem… depends on how rigorously defined the 0.5-win bonus to AL players is.

…does interleague really account for 80% of the schedule?? Holy crap, that’s insane.
-j

by JinAZ on Jul 2, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was making up the 80%.

But yes, your paraphrase is what I’m saying. And I’m not sure if the WAR-based adjustment already accounts for the interleague play, either.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 2, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think there's some rounding involved

Tango’s always stressed the +-0.5 (at least) win error rate with WAR, and thus often just rounds to a half win. But if you start adding up all player seasons on a team, you start compounding your error rate. I’ll try to take another look at it. I’m fine with “regressing” my adjustment by whatever % of teams’ games are interleague. -j

by JinAZ on Jul 2, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So...

This year there were (or will be, once the Cubs and ChiSox make up their game) 252 interleague games. There are 30 teams (15 “pairs” of teams) overall playing 162 games for each pair, which is 2430 games. So that means that 252/2430 MLB games are interleague games, which is just over 10% of all games.

If I cut the league adjustment by 10%, the rankings don’t change much. Only 8 teams moved at all, and the biggest movers were MIL & BAL, which jumped and lost two spots, respectively (it’s easy to move when you’re a roughly 0.500 team).

I can see someone argue for a larger cut at this point in the season, because interleague games involve closer to 20% of games thus far. That makes more of a difference. My preference, for my own sanity, is to just hold the line at 10% rather than updating the cut each week, but I could be pushed that way if people really want that done.
-j

by JinAZ on Jul 2, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know and I don't have a better approach

It just seems off that the second worst AL team (BAL) is better than all but two of the NL teams.

I agree with you that the components seem to make sense, but the final outcome needs some getting used to.

I’ll think about it some more, but I probably would have approached the problem the same way you did.

by Dan Turkenkopf on Jul 2, 2009 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

NL Teams

I completely agree that it’s jarring. If more than two NL teams were clearly better than 0.500 teams in their own league, it wouldn’t look so severe. But aside from the dodgers and rockies, the best expected NL record IN THE NL is just 0.514.
-j

by JinAZ on Jul 2, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pitching has been there

Fielding has been pretty rough: Lowell, Bay, Lugo, Ellsbury, and Baldelli all rate blow average at their positions.

Offense…will Ortiz get it together?
-j

by JinAZ on Jul 1, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Papi's coming around, he's still weighed down by the slumpy start.
  • Lowell’s not healthy
  • Bay plays too deep at Fenway and is too slow coming in on short flies, grounders, and liners. Plus, he’s got a weak arm and still isn’t great at reading wall ball bounces.
  • Lugo… well, he sucked, got injured, sucks even worse.
  • Ells has no arm, is turning into Abreu at times with his wall-phobia
  • Rocco, IDK. Haven’t seen him play enough.

OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I must say that I am a real fan of the advanced, or whatever they are being called statistics...

but being an Avid Royal fan, and seeing how bad they have been playing, It makes me think you should rethink how your Power Ranks are devised. Because they cant hit, really aren’t great at fielding, and their bullpen is really unreliable.

Perhaps Im looking at this wrong and can be enlightened (and Im all for that), but I just do not see how a rational person can compile these rankings and say… Yep that looks right.

Nothing from Nothing leads to... Your 2009 Kansas City Royals

by averagegatsby on Jul 1, 2009 9:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Great pitching

…but worthless help from position players on offense and fielding. The data support that. It’s 100% a pitching team. The ChiSox are similar, but with better offense and fielding.
-j

by JinAZ on Jul 1, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll also add, a suspect bullpen can be deceiving in a few ways:

One, it might have cost them games in the past, but we’re looking at true talent. If Joe Bob has an average LI of 1.5 and a tRA of 4.00, that’s all these power rankings care about. But in the games, he might have had a 5.00 tRA in 2.0 LI situations and a 3.00 tRA in 1.0 LI situations, which would cost the Royals games (and would be shown in WPA). But since the power ranking model assumes pitchers have the same talent in whatever situations, it ignore that.

Two, the back of the bullpen (and middle to a certain extent) really aren’t that important. The closer and maybe a setup man really impact the team, in general. Soria’s actually been pretty good this year and carries a 2.25 LI. Only Bale is also over 1.1.

Three, some of their failure can be put on the fielders.

Oh, and the starters have been phenomenal.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 1, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LI

I don’t do anything with bullpen leverage here. An inning is an inning as far as the rankings know. -j

by JinAZ on Jul 1, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough...

and I guess I can buy into that, and it really only proves how bad the Offense and Defense are… But it almost seems to me, that pitching may be weighted more heavily than the other 2.

And I guess I may also be too close to the situation to look at it open minded.

Nothing from Nothing leads to... Your 2009 Kansas City Royals

by averagegatsby on Jul 1, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

don't forget...

about the league adjustment. Without it (eW%lg column), the Royals are in the bottom third.
-j

by JinAZ on Jul 1, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really need to read up on some of the information given

I am in way over my head.

Nothing from Nothing leads to... Your 2009 Kansas City Royals

by averagegatsby on Jul 1, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Its nothing I cant comprehend...

I just kind of jumped in the deep end.

3 months ago I was… what is this thing they call OPS, and now Im knee deep in FIP, wOBA, and UZR… Thankfully I have a lot of time being an unemployed college graduate. YAY AMERICAN JOB MARKET!!!

I just started reading the Baseball Prospectus book “Between the Numbers.”

Nothing from Nothing leads to... Your 2009 Kansas City Royals

by averagegatsby on Jul 1, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha.

I know what you mean. I jumped in last year during the end of the summer. Of course, I also pulled a stupid stunt thinking I knew everything – ask RJ. I was a total ass.

OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 1, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well I missed the entire baseball season last year due to being abroad...

I literally watched the final out of opening day in the airport, then got back in mid August. I kind of saw the “advanced” stats and numbers last year because I was reading a lot of baseball to keep up (mostly Posnanski), but I really wasn’t too interested. But now that I am back, and that I have time to kill, and the more I read the more I began to follow this stuff, and now Im like… Fuck it, cant be harder than Thermodynamics.

That and Since I am not in school or doing anything, Ive convinced myself that I can keep my mind sharp by still crunching, and “understanding” numbers.

Nothing from Nothing leads to... Your 2009 Kansas City Royals

by averagegatsby on Jul 1, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good idea.

Amazing that with technology at it’s current state, people can still drop off the radar for extended periods of time.

OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 2, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

See, I didn't even know that.

Adds to my stupidity.

OverTheMonster - ALLERGEN WARNING: May contain peanut butter.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Jul 2, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Input's always good. Keep it coming. The more detailed the better.

Just looking at their rankings in various categories…

Hitting (eRS): 26th
Defense (Fld): 24th
Pitching (tRA): 6th

Putting pitching at, oh 35%, and fielding at 15% gives a weighted ranking of 18 or 19. The league adjustment bumps them up a few places evidently.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 1, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your ranking system really hates the Giants.

"if gio would of ptched,he would of pitched shoot outs." - MR.OAKLAND

"Anyone who calls themselves the Angels Angels should have to start over and ride the short bus." -timmeh from McCovey Chronicles

by Cheezombie on Jul 1, 2009 10:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

These power rankings have continually bothered me...

they don’t “feel” right, and you know what they say about metrics and losing your virginity: if it doesn’t feel right, it probably isn’t right. Of course, the latter is rarely an issue for us statheads in mom’s basement, but lame jokes aside I have some real points to discuss. Maybe I’m missing something, so feel free to set me straight at any point if so:

As I understand it, this power ranking is a solution to something like " imagine a season where every team plays each other X times..what are the final standings?" However, we are only using results from the actual season to date to give our predictions. So luck is exactly as it has been in the real-world season to date.

WHY?
Why do we care about this question? It seems to be three separate questions mashed together into a misleading “power ranking”.

Problem 1: The two leagues are not really playing the same game; the DH gives AL teams a significant advantage in team formation, and in any hypothetical head-to-head showdown between all 30 teams playing X games vs. all others…NL teams would all grab DHs, and even if they didn’t spend as much as the real AL does on a DH, just using the spot correctly and not having whoever gets the day off in the field taking the spot would help a fair bit.

Problem 2: In the real world, your division and league have a significant effect on your chances of winning the WS. Isn’t this what really matters? As it is constructed, it seems like an exercise to make AL East fans feel better about their predicament.
Example: Would you say a team who is 30% to win the NL, but only 40% to win the title once in the WS, is not as “powerful” as a team with 10% shot at the AL, which if they do results in 60% chance of WS title- the NL club in this hypo is 12% champs vs. 6% for the AL. Made up numbers obv. for effect, but the point remains that this is more of what actually matters.

Problem 3: There is nothing to test the rankings on- shouldn’t a ranking formula be attempting to predict final results to some extent? If you go back to prior seasons and run this system at various points, I bet you will find that teams in the same division/league are tied together and “bunched up” more than you would expect, due to exaggerated factors and what seems to be some double-counting.
Example: One example of double counting would be that Baltimore likely faces a ton of crappy relievers late in games, because they get slaughtered a lot by the other AL east teams.

Hope these questions and complaints make sense, and if not I can help clarify- if you have addressed these elsewhere I apologize.

by Canseco's Roid Party on Jul 2, 2009 1:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Some responses

Re preamble: luck is mitigated to some extent by using component stats rather than ones substantially impacted by timing, ground balls with eyes, etc. That’s what makes this ranking a bit different from some of the others around the webs.

Re 1: I’m not as convinced that the DH really matters that much. You’d expect it would help hitting but hurt pitching. … and that more or less all comes out in the wash when calculating team winning percentage. I’m careful not to compare offenses or pitching across leagues for these rankings.

Re 2: We’re not predicting who will go to the postseason. We’re assessing how well teams have played, irrespective of actual team wins (or runs). Dan does playoff stuff a bit with his poor-man projected standings, but that’s not the goal here.

Re 3: some strength of schedule adjustments might help with some of this, but that is a non-trivial undertaking to incorporate. I unfortunately only have so much time, and I’m focusing on other things right now. I will say that, because we do use stats that get away from timing, I think these rankings do get a bit closer to true talent then, say, just pythagorean rankings. But I haven’t tested that. The Rays recent success was predicted by the rankings to some degree, but that’s anecdotal.

I think a lot of your critique is just anti-power rankings in general. I think they have their problems, but I still find it interesting to try to rank teams against one another like this. If nothing else, I think these data give us another look at team performance that helps us break down the reasons for their success (or failure) between offense, pitching, and fielding, while removing some (definitely not all) luck-based events from the mix.
-j

by JinAZ on Jul 2, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

And as much as I stare at these rankings with my jaw on the floor (Royals fan),

I do love seeing them done in a unique way.

If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showforum=129

by Warden11 on Jul 2, 2009 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One at a time...
As I understand it, this power ranking is a solution to something like " imagine a season where every team plays each other X times..what are the final standings?" However, we are only using results from the actual season to date to give our predictions.

This is more like, “how much talent have teams showcased so far?” They’re not looking forward, which as you note later, could be an issue if you don’t care about that question or want something testable.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 2, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

If we were really going for a prospective look at teams, we’d be using projections and playing time estimates. That’s not the real goal here. It’s more retrospective in nature. That won’t be interesting to some, but it’s neat to me. -j

by JinAZ on Jul 2, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right. I find it interesting and so do you.

But if others don’t, then no problem, they should pay attention to a different type of list or create one themselves or work with us to create one that answers a different question.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 2, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've never understood this argument:
The two leagues are not really playing the same game; the DH gives AL teams a significant advantage in team formation, and in any hypothetical head-to-head showdown between all 30 teams playing X games vs. all others…NL teams would all grab DHs, and even if they didn’t spend as much as the real AL does on a DH, just using the spot correctly and not having whoever gets the day off in the field taking the spot would help a fair bit.

NL teams don’t have to spend money/draft picks on a DH. That means they can focus on acquiring more talent at other positions. So when interleague games don’t use a DH, NL teams should have the advantage, because the DH on the AL team turns into a glorified pinch hitter, or takes the field and creates a defensive loss. The NL team hasn’t lost any assets.

Now, that’s pretty simplistic, and I’m open to the idea that the AL has an inherent advantage because of the DH, but the basic argument doesn’t hold.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 2, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is true:
Problem 2: In the real world, your division and league have a significant effect on your chances of winning the WS. Isn’t this what really matters? As it is constructed, it seems like an exercise to make AL East fans feel better about their predicament.

If you want to answer the question, “who’s more likely to make the playoffs?” then you need to account for divisions and leagues and future performance, definitely. But Justin’s only ranking quality of past performance.

However, stay tuned. There just might be something later in the week that will quench you thirst for this question…

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 2, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Third one:
There is nothing to test the rankings on- shouldn’t a ranking formula be attempting to predict final results to some extent? If you go back to prior seasons and run this system at various points, I bet you will find that teams in the same division/league are tied together and "bunched up" more than you would expect, due to exaggerated factors and what seems to be some double-counting.

Again, that just isn’t what these rankings are measuring, for better or worse. While the NL Central might have a bunch of bad teams, it WILL send someone to the playoffs. You seem to want to put that team on equal footing with, the Angels or Rangers, while Justin doesn’t. No worries, different approach.

If I were to make any modifications to these and had infinite research abilities, I’d account for exact schedule, home/away games, strength of opposing pitcher, strength of opposing lineups, etc. etc. Some of those matter more than others. Definitely room for improvement here, but they’re pretty good as is, if you’re into the question Justin’s chosen to answer.

by Sky Kalkman on Jul 2, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The NL may not have lost any assets, but they do have one less starter.

Whether or not this means they “should” have more talent elsewhere, in practice…they don’t. Maybe this is because DH’s are generally not “scrappy” while subs in the NL are? And therefore suck. But I think there is something to this part of the argument, I may need to explain more however.

by Canseco's Roid Party on Jul 2, 2009 5:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

if they spent the same money

…then the AL would have to field a weaker player at each position (on average) than the NL because they would have to spread the same dollars around to one more player.

The thing is, of course, that they don’t spend the same money. The AL spends more than the NL. That’s a big part of the reason that the AL talent level is greater than the NL talent level…hence the league adjustment we apply here.
-j

by JinAZ on Jul 2, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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