Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Todd Haley Is The Steelers Next Offensive Coordinator

Historical WAR Between Hitters and Pitchers

With Sean Smith releasing historical WAR for pitchers, we can take a look at how they compare with the hitters.  Here are the top twenty five players in career WAR, including seasons 1955 and after.

Rank WAR Pos Player
1 173.9 H Bonds, Barry 
2 140.4 H Mays, Willie 
3 139.7 H Aaron, Hank 
4 128.3 P Clemens, Roger 
5 114.7 H Henderson, Rickey 
6 106.5 H Schmidt, Mike 
7 106.1 H Robinson, Frank 
8 105.4 P Seaver, Tom 
9 104.7 H Morgan, Joe 
10 99.3 H Mantle, Mickey 
11 96.8 P Niekro, Phil 
12 96.7 P Maddux, Greg 
13 96.5 H Rodriguez, Alex 
14 96.3 P Perry, Gaylord 
15 94.5 H Yastrzemski, Carl 
16 92.3 H Boggs, Wade 
17 91.8 P Johnson, Randy 
18 91.2 H Ripken, Cal 
19 90.6 H Kaline, Al 
20 90.3 P Blyleven, Bert 
21 89.3 H Brett, George 
22 85.5 P Gibson, Bob 
23 84.8 P Ryan, Nolan 
24 84.6 H Rose, Pete 
25 84.4 P Carlton, Steve 

There are two active players on that list, Alex Rodriguez and Randy Johnson.  ARod's only 10 WAR from moving into sixth all time ahead of Mike Schmidt, but would need a dozen more WAR to catch Rickey Henderson and the top five, and another few MVP-caliber seasons to catch Roger Clemens.

The best of the best -- Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, and Hank Aaron -- are, as expected, hitters and are three of the all-time best players.  Willie Mays' total even ignores a few seasons that came before 1955.  6 out of the top 7 and 8 out of the top ten are also hitters.  Is it possible for Clemens and Tom Seaver to be underrated?

The top 25 currently contains 15 hitters and 10 pitchers, perhaps a few more pitchers than I would have guessed.  If you look deeper, at the top 100 players, you find 73% are hitters.  At spot 150, a strange thing happens.  Here, take a look:

Hitters_to_pitchers_medium

Star-divide

Basically, between players ranked 150 and 200, the front half contains a strangely large percentage of pitchers, while the back half contains a strangely large percentage of hitters.  My first thought was that perhaps this is where the best relief pitchers started to fall.  But that doesn't explain the resurgence of the hitters.  And the gap is only from 48 WAR down to 42 WAR, not that wide of a range.  Statistical oddity?  Here, you decide:

149 47.5 P Gooden, Dwight 
150 47.3 P Friend, Bob 
151 47.3 H Puckett, Kirby 
152 47.1 P Langston, Mark 
153 47.1 H Burks, Ellis 
154 47.1 H Harrah, Toby 
155 46.9 P Moyer, Jamie 
156 46.9 P Rivera, Mariano 
157 46.9 H Delgado, Carlos 
158 46.8 P Martinez, Dennis 
159 46.6 P Rogers, Kenny 
160 46.5 H Colavito, Rocky 
161 46.3 H Cepeda, Orlando 
162 45.9 P Rogers, Steve 
163 45.8 P Key, Jimmy 
164 45.8 H White, Roy 
165 45.7 P Lolich, Mickey 
166 45.7 H Tenace, Gene 
167 45.5 P Pappas, Milt 
168 45.3 P Pettitte, Andy 
169 45.2 H Vizquel, Omar 
170 44.9 P Wood, Wilbur 
171 44.5 P Guidry, Ron 
172 44.5 H Fregosi, Jim 
173 44.5 H Campaneris, Bert 
174 44.2 H Damon, Johnny 
175 44.0 H Knoblauch, Chuck 
176 43.9 P Blue, Vida 
177 43.9 H Murphy, Dale 
178 43.7 P Viola, Frank 
179 43.7 H Garciaparra, Nomar 
180 43.5 H Oliva, Tony 
181 43.5 H Canseco, Jose 
182 43.4 H Franco, Julio 
183 43.4 H Finley, Steve 
184 43.2 H Strawberry, Darryl 
185 43.2 H Berkman, Lance 
186 43.1 H Van Slyke, Andy 
187 43.0 H Dykstra, Lenny 
188 43.0 H Fernandez, Tony 
189 42.9 H Rice, Jim 
190 42.8 H Williams, Matt 
191 42.6 H Cameron, Mike 
192 42.6 H Singleton, Ken 
193 42.4 H Brock, Lou 
194 42.4 H Freehan, Bill 
195 42.4 H Mattingly, Don 
196 42.2 H Powell, Boog 
197 42.2 H Munson, Thurman 
198 41.9 H Porter, Darrell 
199 41.8 H Foster, George 
200 41.8 H White, Devon 

Going back to the graph, there are some other interesting things to notice:

  • The best of the best are hitters, but the top 25 players contains a large number of pitchers.
  • The next 25 players are mostly hitters, getting the ratio of hitters to pitcher up into the high 2's through the top 100 players.
  • Then, except for the weird thing in the middle, the ratio of hitters to pitchers gradually decreases through the rest of the list, settling on almost exactly 2.0 by the top 350 players.

Note that I'm only showing the top 452 players on the graph, because that's where the 300th ranked position player (Bill Mazeroski) falls.  Everyone after that would be pitchers, because Sean doesn't go beyond the top 300.

The short story?  We probably underrate pitchers, especially those outside the inner circle of Hall of Famers.  Might that be because we've seen so many inner-circle HoFamers pitch in the last generation and take them for granted?

Comment 15 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

that is such an enormous amount of interesting information, i think it signals

nothing good for my mental capacity that i have only one thought: Phil Niekro?!?!??

i guess if you play baseball for like 19 million years you become very valuable overall.

the truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark/ it scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark -- macmanus

by tom s. on May 5, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions  

blyleven

in the company of ripken, george brett, kaline and bob gibson. weren’t those all first ballot HOFers?
 
the injustice continues to get more egregious.

by erik on May 5, 2009 5:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Too bad the retrosheet era starts at 1955. I have to imagine that guys like Cy Young, Addie Joss, Walter Johnston, etc would have some silly WAR values

Wisconsin: Famous for dairy, Ryan Rohlinger and not much else.

by Scottsdale on May 5, 2009 10:24 PM EDT reply actions  

why can't WAR go earlier for pitchers?

isn’t it just based on FIP minus league average FIP +2 wins?

OT, but for things like this,another interesting comparison would be a WAR-like comparison for pitchers based on something more results-oriented than FIP. Since we’re talking about HOF-caliber careers, it would at worst be “interesting”.

- "I went at it and didn’t slow down, so it kind of bounced off me." -Lil' Dunc

by SleepyCA on May 6, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

not to mention

Mathewson, Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Wagner, Hornsby, Alexander, etc… I would love to see Ruth’s WAR for pitching.

by gingerbreadmann on May 5, 2009 10:37 PM EDT reply actions  

I can't believe the Hall voted in someone who was .3 wins better then Mike Cameron over their career.

And since Mike Cameron is still producing, will eventually be worth less then Mike Cameron over their career.

Jose Lopez roxxorz my boxxorz.
51!

by joof on May 6, 2009 10:19 AM EDT reply actions  

I haven't seen a good explanation of the differences between Fangraphs' Win values and Sean Smith's - what makes them different?

Fangraphs has Randy Johnson at 8.7 WAR in 2002 and 9.7 WAR in 2004, while Smith has him at 8.8 WAR in 2002 and then 7.4 WAR (2.5 wins off) in 2004 – what’s the cause of variation like this (it’s present for other pitchers like Curt Schilling and for hitters too – Ichiro comes to mind). What’s going on here?

by Decatur on May 7, 2009 12:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Some of the larger differences:

Position Players
UZR vs. TotalZone fielding metric
catcher defense in Sean’s WAR
slight rep level difference
baserunning in Sean’s WAR

Pitchers
Fangraphs uses FIP. Sean uses ERA, adjusted for defense, park, etc.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on May 7, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

We use numbers and stuff.
Community Guidelines
Why be a member?

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Free Agent Compensation
Img_0001_small
Value of Various Plate Approaches
Strike_three2_small
Effect of Foul Area on Strikeouts: AL 1954-68: Erratum
Small
Baseball on a stick
Small
Player Evaluating Statistic
Baseball_small
Rays Outfield: Cheap but Extremely Productive
Small
A new xBABIP
Small
Jack Morris "pitching to the score"
Strike_three2_small
Foul Area and Differences in SO: AL vs NL
Baseball_small
Is there a Kuroda and Oswalt Alternative?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Follow us on Facebook!

Follow us on Twitter!

SaberGraphics

MLB Daily Dish

Get the latest MLB Trade Rumors, Transactions, and News at MLB Daily Dish!


Managing Editor:

Jbopp-kc_small Justin Bopp

Columnists:

Adam_small adarowski

Dme_small Satchel Price

Closeup4_small J-Doug

Carlosicon_small Julian Levine

Billy_and_daddy_4th_of_july_small Bill Petti

Featuring:

Dayton_small Jeff Zimmerman

12475953_small Jacob Peterson

Picture-6_small Chris St. John

Btbpro_small Dave Gershman

229331_10150183361996591_674441590_6760167_6637860_n3_small Lewie Pollis

Img_3830_small David Fung