How Many Seasons Would it Take?
To match Barry Bonds' career Wins Above Replacement value? Thanks to new Historical WAR Data -- courtesy of BaseballProjection.com -- we can see how many wins above replacement-level a player contributed over his career. Since 1954, Barry Bonds has a career total of 175.1 wins above replacement. That's #1 on the list of all players during this time period. Bonds is +30 wins above the next player on the list -- Willie Mays with 141.8 career wins above replacement.
I could go on all day about how mind-shatteringly good Bonds was but I won't bore you with those details and numbers. Instead, I thought it would be interesting to take some of the best players in today's game -- by WAR -- and see just how long it would take them to reach Bonds' total career win value.
My simple methodology:
1. Find out how much WAR per PA a player is contributing. I took the career WAR numbers of several players and then divided it by career PAs to find out. So, WAR/PA = Career WAR / Career PA
2. I then divided the WAR/PA by Bonds career WAR total to find out how many PAs it would take to reach 175.1 wins.
3. After that, I divided the number of PAs needed to equal Bonds' career win value by 750. This chunks everything into 750 PA seasons. For the purposes of this article, we'll say that everyone can play 750 PAs per season indefinitely until they reach Bonds' career win values -- even if that is unrealistic.
4. That would give us just the total amount of seasons needed to reach Bonds without consideration of how many seasons a player has completed to this point. Some players have already played multiple seasons. In order to fix this, I took the career PAs for each player, and divided that by 750 to find out how many seasons I should give them credit for already. I then subtracted this from their projected number of seasons needed to match Bonds. This will tell us how many seasons going forward they would need to produce 175.1 career wins above replacement. (Seasons = Total Projected Seasons - Actual Completed Seasons)
5. I then randomly picked some of the top players, by WAR, from FanGraphs leader boards over the last couple of years. This part wasn't very scientific, but it'll give us a decent idea of who's a top player in baseball at this very moment.
Data Table
|
Name |
Career WAR |
Career PA |
WAR/PA |
PA Needed |
Seasons |
| Alex Rodriguez |
97.3 | 8981 | 0.010834 | 16162.10791 | 9.57 |
| Albert Pujols | 67.2 | 5334 | 0.012598 | 13898.5625 | 11.42 |
| Chipper Jones | 75.9 | 8595 | 0.008831 | 19828.51779 | 14.98 |
| Carlos Beltran | 53.3 | 6434 | 0.008284 | 21136.83677 | 19.60 |
| Derek Jeter | 62.6 | 8976 | 0.006974 | 25106.99042 | 21.51 |
| Grady Sizemore | 27.2 | 3091 | 0.0088 | 19898.3125 | 22.41 |
| Chase Utley | 27.2 | 3094 | 0.008791 | 19917.625 | 22.43 |
| Lance Berkman | 44.2 | 5745 | 0.007694 | 22759.03846 | 22.69 |
| Hanley Ramirez | 18.4 | 2082 | 0.008838 | 19812.94565 | 23.64 |
| David Wright | 24.9 | 3015 | 0.008259 | 21201.86747 | 24.25 |
| Mark Teixeria | 27 | 3909 | 0.006907 | 25350.58889 | 28.59 |
| Evan Longoria | 3.8 | 500 | 0.0076 | 23039.47368 | 30.05 |
| Matt Holliday | 19.5 | 2953 | 0.006603 | 26516.42564 | 31.42 |
| Miguel Cabrera | 22.5 | 3716 | 0.006055 | 28918.73778 | 33.60 |
| David Ortiz | 28.9 | 5376 | 0.005376 | 32572.23529 | 36.26 |
| Ryan Howard | 14.3 | 2421 | 0.005907 | 29644.55245 | 36.30 |
Thoughts:
- As of right now, if A-Rod can maintain his WAR/PA that he's established to this point, he'll only need 9.5 seasons of production to catch Barry Bonds. A-Rod will be 33-years-old this coming season and that would take him to his 42/43-year-old seasons. He's our best bet to catch Bonds at the moment.
- Runner up to A-Rod, is Albert Pujols. Pujols is going to need 11.4 additional seasons to match Bonds' career win totals. Pujols will be 29-years-old in 2009 and 11.4 additional seasons would take him to his age 39/40 seasons. Pujols might be a riskier bet than Rodriguez because he's almost always playing banged up, and if he needs to take a year off because of surgery or something, he's going to lose time.
- After Pujols and A-Rod, things get out of hand. I'm not sure I see 37-year-old Chipper Jones playing another 14.98 seasons. Same with almost everyone else on the list, they just don't have the time to catch Bonds.
- Hanley Ramirez is one of the younger players on the list, so you'll have to take that into account when figuring out how long it would take him, but even with his youth, he would have to play another 23.6 seasons. That would take Hanely to somewhere near his age 47 season. Even Longoria would have to play to his age 52 season.
- At the bottom of the list is Ryan Howard. If he maintained his current established level of production he would have to play another 36.3 seasons to match Bonds' value.
Potential Problems
The biggest problem is that none of this takes into account a player getting better and raising their WAR/PA -- thus reducing their needed PAs to reach the magic number of 175.1 wins. I think that's possible for players like Hanley or Evan Longoria, but it would most likely have to be a significant raise in production to start shaving off seasons required. I'm not sure I see that much growth happening.
Finishing Thoughts
Bonds' career total of 175.1 wins above replacement is an absurd number and it's unlikely that anyone will match it any time soon. But, because Pujols and Rodriguez are even in this conversation is a testament to the type of players they've been so far in their respective careers. Very special players, indeed.
Comment Starter: Did I miss any players who you think have a shot? If you had to choose between Pujols and A-Rod to match Bonds career win values, which one would you take and why?
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86 comments
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Comments
I know this is an impossible question
to answer qualitatively, but how many of Bonds’ career wins were inflated by chemistry?
Surely, he amassed substantial numbers of production well into his late 30s and 40s, and played those seasons with the mind of 15 year veteran and the energy of a 25 year old kid. In short, Bonds effectively prolonged the years he could maximize his talent.
This both is and isn’t the usual “Bonds cheated and is an asterisk” comment. Yes, we should acknowledge his greatness, and yes, we should acknowledge that his greatness cannot be compared, analytically, with others players and careers that were not (as) juiced.
by Evan Nelson on Mar 3, 2009 2:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Bonds "true" numbers
Well I used the same idea as the post and found that:
Bonds had a WAR/PA of .0131 from 1986-2000
Bonds then had a War/PA of .01625 from 2001-2007
If you use the pre-roid rage average then Bonds goes from having 56.1 from 2001-2007 to having 45.3
Meaning he would have a career total of 164.2 instead of 172 (so minus 8 WAR)
Still amazing numbers, but those numbers assume that into his late 30’s without roids he was hitting like he was in his 20’s so again the numbers are probably even more inflated
by thoran85 on Mar 3, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
*175 was Bonds total so minus 11 WAR from his career total
by thoran85 on Mar 3, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
you can’t assume that Manny would be able to replicate his earlier seasons in his late 30’s and early 40’s.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 3, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m really not concerned about steroids. If we start altering Bonds’ numbers, do we also start with A-Rods? It’s too messy to go through right now, imo.
by xanthan on Mar 3, 2009 2:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
No way
There is no way you can say that when his age 36-42 seasons actually got better in terms of WAR/PA then his earlier career. That just does not happen, plus we know he took something.
by thoran85 on Mar 3, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Have you ever looked at Hank Aaron's career?
He’s got some pretty crazy spikes in his late 30’s.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
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by marcello on Mar 3, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t say what? No one is arguing that Bonds had crazy good seasons between 36-39. But, I’m not going to alter his numbers for the reasons I stated above. Plus, how much do you change them? How much impact did PEDs have? And if I start changing Bonds numbers, I’ll have to start changing A-Rod’s numbers. And it’s not like A-Rod and Bonds were the only ones taking PEDs during this time. How many other people on this list were taking something? 10% ? 25% ? 50%?
You can’t know — at least right now we don’t know. Just treat it as an era and move on.
by xanthan on Mar 3, 2009 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My thing is that
PED’s don’t improve your strike zone judgement. One of the reasons Bonds was so bood IMO were his retarded good OBP numbers
I could be wrong though
by staplemaniac on Mar 3, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well that huge arm gaurd didn't hurt his hitting ability either
by thoran85 on Mar 3, 2009 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it didn't matter that he could stand over the plate with impunity
by thoran85 on Mar 3, 2009 5:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It wasn’t to guard his arm it was a mechanical hitting machine that improved his power.
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by WalrusMan on Mar 3, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure the armguard actually did give him a mechanical advantage
Some work has been done on this somewhere… too lazy to look it up.
by mattybobo on Mar 3, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw it to.
I don’t think xanthan gets that the arm guard locks his arm, and allows him to put more power into the ball upon contact. I think that was the premise of the work, IIRC.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Mar 3, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Best link I could find:
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Mar 3, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, look, it’s the crackpot “hitting machine” article.
by xanthan on Mar 3, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It still helped hiim to wear it, no question
by thoran85 on Mar 3, 2009 9:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, there's certainly some question, but I'll allow the point.
Why didn’t others wear one? Was it the grandfathered rule?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is absurd.
The elbow isn’t a socket joint. Unless this mechanism extended all the way to his shoulder or I have a severe lack of knowledge of the way the elbow works, it did absolutely nothing for him whatsoever.
The fact that item six lists the weight of the elbow pad is beyond laughable. Maybe Barry Bonds ate seventeen cheeseburgers before games so he’d be fatter at game-time and would therefore hit the ball farther, too! Let’s burn him in effigy.
by jwiscarson on Mar 3, 2009 10:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the part where it randomly states that it added 75-100 HRs to Bonds’ career totals.
by xanthan on Mar 4, 2009 8:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
me too
everyone knows it was more like 200-300
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by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 9:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Finally, some objectivity in this thread.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I want to see a Willie Bloomquist wear a “hitting machine” and hit 75-100 HRs in a season!
by xanthan on Mar 4, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Get on it, Dayton Moore!
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Too late
I’ve already taken them all! I’m using one on each elbow and knee cap. We’ll see how hard it is to hit homeruns!! :-)
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 4, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It keeps him from over extending the elbow.
His arms aren’t completely straight:

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Mar 4, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See those wrist bands? They provide Barry with a mechanical hitting advantage. They most likely padded his career HR total by 25-50 HRs.
by xanthan on Mar 4, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His helmet is a feed from the TV booth.
They tell him what pitch is coming.
Yes, they can see the future.
by R.J. Anderson on Mar 4, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So is it safe to assume that the armguard thing is discredited?
Yikes. I read the article a long time ago and assumed the guy knew what he was talking about. Oh well.
by mattybobo on Mar 5, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can you provide a picture of this mechanism?
I see nothing that restricts his movements in the above photo. The elbow pad would need some sort of hinge or band that slows movement beyond a certain point.
You know though, even if it had such a thing, it is an elbow pad. It would have to be made of very hard plastic or metal and attached to his arm via something other than Velcro for it to actually restrict movement.
by jwiscarson on Mar 4, 2009 7:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If PEDs result in crazy power, then pitchers are less likely to throw you hittable pitches.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, there's no way someone's WAR could increase in their mid to late 30s compared to their 20s without steriods.
It’s why I hate Jaime Moyer. Guy roided his ass off to become better in his 30s compared to his entire 20s. The fact that he’s picthed much better in his 40s then his 20s just shows how much of a Roid head he’s been.
There are no good individual basketball statistics.
54!
by joof on Mar 3, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
/sarcasm?
It’s not as apparent in text.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Mar 3, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it was pretty obviously sarcasm.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. - Emo Philips
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Mar 3, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great article
But if A-Rod is 33 years old and needs 9.5 seasons to catch Bonds, won’t that take him to his age 42/43 seasons, not 39/40? And that’s assuming he doesn’t decline of course.
by Brendan Scolari on Mar 3, 2009 3:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Whoops, thanks for the typo point out. I’ll edit right away.
by xanthan on Mar 3, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How long will it take Mike Jacobs?
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Mar 3, 2009 3:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Just for you, devil_fingers:
Name Career WAR Career PA WAR/PA Total PA Seasons M. Jacobs 0.1 1599 6.25391E-05 2799849 3731
Sorry for the lousy formatting. Mike Jacobs would be approximately 3,758-years-old.
by xanthan on Mar 3, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Maybe they could take his brain and put it into some sort of robot so he could play for the next 3,000 years.
by xanthan on Mar 3, 2009 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if we find the technology for this
please don’t tell D Eckstein… he may take us up on this… and I won’t even ask how many seasons Eck would need to reach Bonds…
412 ^100… something like that?
by daveh33 on Mar 3, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Uncool man
I luv Eckstein
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 3, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks, now to alert Dayton Moore
If the Royals are going to get the full financial benefit of having signed Jacobs, they’re going to need to lock him up, um, sort of “long term” so that they can reap the reward of the massive crowds that will show up to see Jacobs chasing Bonds’ career WAR mark.
Is there a such thing as a baseball dreadnought?
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by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 12:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I love this post for the fact that
Jacobs’s WAR/PA has to be expressed via scientific notation. It makes me feel like we’re about to do some chemistry analysis.
by jwiscarson on Mar 4, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sig figs!
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I want to kill my Chem teacher, and y'all aren't helping.
She never actually TEACHES.
by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Mar 4, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, by the time he's 1287, I'm sure medical technology will allow him to play another 1444 seasons.
It’s those first 1287 years that are the tough ones.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think this is overly pessmistic
just think about the arm protector technology they’ll have 1,000 years from now
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's see if I can crunch the STATS like you...
In order for Neifi Perez to be able to reach that total (if we figure out how many wins above replacement he’s creating per PA — Career WAR/Career PA) it would take him 2,348,528.75 career plate appearances to match Bonds’ career win total. That’s 2 million+ career PAs! If we say that Neifi is an iron man, and could net 750 PAs per season, it would only take him a little over 3,131 seasons to be able to reach Bonds.
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by WalrusMan on Mar 3, 2009 7:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yea..Still Neifi Perez is better than Mike Jacobs……..Whoah.
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by WalrusMan on Mar 3, 2009 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That' MR. 34 HRs to you, B-TCH!!!111
He’s Steve Balboni without the mustache or the ability to play passable defense
Number of WS rings possessed by Mr. Balboni: 1
by A-FraudROID: 0
I rest my case.
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by devil_fingers on Mar 4, 2009 12:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What a nerd!
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Position Changes?
Isn’t it fairly likely that A-Rod will eventually have to shift away from 3B to 1B or DH, lose 15 or 20 runs per season, and that in turn will raise the bar even higher? This is obviously less of a concern with Pujols as shifting from 1B to a full-time DH role would cost him only 5 runs per season.
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
31 May 2007, 21:38 EST - the last time Matteh's career W-L wasn't below.500
We are at war with Los Angeles. We have always been at war with Los Angeles.
by S.F. Giangst on Mar 3, 2009 7:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, positional changes would have SOME effect on this. This is just a rough sketch of how long it might take, but good point about positions changing when players age.
by xanthan on Mar 3, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Theoretically, changing positions will also increase his fielding score about the same amount.
Aging is an issue for both offense and defense, which Chris ignored, since, well, you know.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
SAVIOR-- JOSE CASTILLO
Jose Castillo has -1.1 wins in 5 years, meaning that he gets -0.22 wins per year. Logically then, 175.1 wins/-0.22 wins/year means it would take -796 seasons to reach 175.1 wins, thereby ensuring that Jose Castillo outdid Jose Castillo in 1206 AD.
by Matt Swartz on Mar 3, 2009 10:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thats pretty trippy
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 3, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So you're using stats to prove
that Jose Castillo would have been better at baseball if he had never been born?
Space.
It's a problem we face.
So we never go anywhere.
We just stay in one place.
by hazel on Mar 3, 2009 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That appears to be true
-1.1 (28) = -30.8 WAR. So if he was never born, than he would have had a solid major league career so far.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 3, 2009 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Better at baseball relative to an MLB replacement-level player.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So is replacement level, average of everyone or average production over a period of time out of position or something else?
by thoran85 on Mar 4, 2009 3:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Could you clarify your question, I'm a bit confused.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a good article. Don't let the length or geekiness put you off. It's actually quite accessible and the graphs are really good.
Short version: find the production of the bottom of the MLB barrel. It’s the level of performance expected from freely available talent (FAT), often either minor or major league free agents who sign for the MLB minimum.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I was hoping that they used some sort of method like that. So I just have a couple more questions:
Doesn’t this mean that replacement level proformance changes from year to year?
-if you use 80-70% of league average production to calc replacement level
Lastly, wouldn’t a smaller amount of teams in the league change the replacment level? Meaning that since you have less teams you should, theory, have better replacments (more players for less spots) and therefore wouldn’t a 10 WAR be better in 1970 then 2008?
by thoran85 on Mar 4, 2009 5:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes, the exact level of production changes.
But since everyone’s on the same playing field, it tends to cancel out. We should always adjust for changing run-scoring environments.
And good point on the league size thing, that doesn’t get much mention. However, since the biggest section of MLB players are in the 0 to 1 WAR true-talent range, rep level won’t go up all that much when removing teams. And the difference between league average and rep level will actually shrink, if I’m thinking about this correctly.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
I have always used replacement or bench level players as a baseline when comparing players, but never really knew what it meant. Glad to know its been well thought through though.
It really is an amazing way to compare players from different positions/leagues/eras
Now if someone could just prefect a defensive metric I would feel real confident
by thoran85 on Mar 4, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also
Do you have a favorite “one number” to use for the value of a player? WAR, Win Shares, WSAB, Value Wins, etc…?
by thoran85 on Mar 4, 2009 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure what brand "value wins" is, but I go with Fangraphs'/Tango's/Rally's implementation of WAR
Fangraphs/Tango need to include non-SB baserunning, but it’s mostly there. Not almost perfect, but almost as good as we can do right now.
Win Shares in various forms aren’t that great, although the Above Baseline piece makes it much better.
WAR is really good for comparing value of players across eras, but not abilities. A 10 WAR player in 1942 would likely be significantly worse than a 10 WAR player today. But his 10 WARs were just as helpful to his team (perhaps more so given a shorter schedule.)
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Any ideas on how long it'd take for Wieters a catcher?
Especially if he lives up to his projections
by Markakis and Wieters 4 Life on Mar 4, 2009 9:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
He wouldn't get enough PA's a year as a catcher
But if he lives up to his .406 wOBA Bill James projection every year, than he might be able to do it.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 4, 2009 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs










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