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Optimizing Lineups: Twins, Mets, and Yankees

After posting my summary of The Book's strategies for optimizing a batting order, some readers suggested I apply the theory to an actual lineup.  I think that's a great idea.  So -- in the spirit of all great infomercials -- you're not just going to get one lineup, but three!

Minnesota Twins

Jesse over at Twinkie Town has a very nice article on the Twins lineup, quoting my article from Tuesday and listing the players who could fit in each spot, so I suggest you read it.  It's a nice format.  What follows below is how my thought process would work, without all the explanation of why (which is really the important part if you want to convince someone to use different lineup.)

First, find a set of hitting projections for the players who should be starters (based on both offensive and defensive abilities.)  CHONE's among the best, so I'll go with that one.  Against righties, Denard Span's defense and platoon advantage should be enough to start him ahead of Delmon Young, leaving these nine players, sorted from best to worst according to offensive runs created above average per 150 games:

Player R150 AVG OBP  SLG
Joe Mauer  30 .314 .410 .452
Justin Morneau  25 .284 .359 .495
Jason Kubel  10 .269 .335 .450
Michael Cuddyer  6 .263 .345 .419
Joe Crede  -5 .252 .304 .423
Denard Span  -5 .274 .343 .377
Alexi Casilla  -14 .267 .331 .354
Nick Punto  -16 .248 .322 .326
Carlos Gomez  -21 .252 .299 .359

 

Take the top three hitters (Mauer, Morneau, and Kubel) and put them in the #1, #2, and #4 spots, with the player least reliant on homeruns first (Mauer), the player with the highest relative OBP second (Mauer, although Kubel's the next best choice), and the player with the best power fourth (Morneau).  That gives us Mauer -- Kubel -- XXX -- Morneau so far.

Now slot the next two best hitters (Cuddyer and either Span or Crede) into the #5 and #3 spots.  From The Book:

The outs for the #5 hitter are much more costly than those in the #3 slot.  Result?  The #5 hitter should be better than the hitter in the #3 slot.

That sounds weird, right?  The reason is that the #3 hitter gets a lot more plate appearances with two outs than the #5 batter.  So, he has less chance to do damage, unless that damage is done with the homerun.

Cuddyer is the best hitter of the three, by far.  He goes fifth, leaving Crede (the homerun-heavy guy) third.  So far we've got Mauer -- Kubel -- Crede -- Morneau -- Cuddyer.

Place the remaining four players in descending order of hitting ability (Span, Casilla, Punto, Gomez). Since Span is clearly the best hitter of the four, he goes sixth, and we fill out the rest as so, given that Casilla, Punto, and Gomez all have the same (lack of) skill-set, just to varying degrees of badness:

  1. Mauer
  2. Kubel
  3. Crede
  4. Morneau
  5. Cuddyer
  6. Span
  7. Casilla
  8. Punto
  9. Gomez

By the way, this is the lineup people are picking to win the AL Central?  A weighted total of runs per 150 yields +20 runs, which, well, is a bit above average, actually.  Pitching and defense...

New York Mets

There's a lot of talk about hitting Jose Reyes in the third spot this year, so we might as well figure out if that's a good move.  CHONE says:

Star-divide

Player R150 AVG OBP  SLG
David Wright  37 .312 .406 .539
Carlos Beltran  16 .272 .366 .486
Carlos Delgado  8 .255 .344 .475
Jose Reyes  8 .294 .356 .450
Ryan Church  -1 .258 .342 .428
Daniel Murphy  -5 .270 .336 .410
Luis Castillo  -9 .275 .360 .347
Brian Schneider  -15 .247 .332 .363

 

The three best hitters are Wright, Beltran, and either Delgado or Reyes.  All but Reyes have too much homerun power to lead off, so that leaves Wright for the #2 hole (a higher percentage of his value is tied to OBP than with Beltran) and Beltran for cleanup.  Reyes would actually make for a solid #5 or #6 hitter, but there's nobody else you want leading off.  Castillo, who's getting a lot of press in New York, just isn't that good at the plate.  Because the lead-off hitter will come to bat a lot with runners on base after the first inning, he actally needs to be able to drive someone in.  So Reyes leads off, leaving an order of Reyes -- Wright -- XXX -- Beltran so far.

The next two best hitters are Delgado and Church.  Delgado's the better hitter, but derives much more of his value from homeruns.  Church is more of a walker.  Without a simulator, there's no obviously answer for which one should bat fifth and which one should bat third.  I'm guessing Church is the better baserunner, so we'll put him fifth, leaving us with Reyes -- Wright -- Delgado -- Beltran -- Church so far.

Murphy, Castillo, and Schneider will round out the order, with the pitcher hitting eighth.  There's a lot of talk about hitting Castillo ninth, and that's viable, but I'm not sure it's the obvious move, given he's a better hitter than Schneider.  However, Schneider has more power and a lower OBP, which makes sense hitting ahead of the pitcher.  Again, we'd need a simulator.  The final lineup looks something like:

  1. Reyes
  2. Wright
  3. Delgado
  4. Beltran
  5. Church
  6. Murphy
  7. Schneider
  8. Pitcher
  9. Castillo

Weighting by lineup position, that looks like a lineup producing 45 runs above average, compared to others without a DH.  Of course, there might be something different against lefties.

New York Yankees

Let's assume ARod's in the lineup.  Their hitters project to rank like this:

Player R150 AVG OBP  SLG
Alex Rodriguez  41 .294 .397 .564
Mark Teixeira  31 .286 .381 .521
Nick Swisher  13 .247 .360 .454
Hideki Matsui  11 .277 .360 .443
Jorge Posada  10 .266 .363 .434
Robinson Cano  8 .300 .340 .468
Derek Jeter  7 .294 .366 .415
Johnny Damon  3 .276 .351 .417
Brett Gardner  -12 .258 .341 .345

 

The best three hitters are ARod, Teixeira, and then, well, a lot of possibilities.  Tex's OBP makes up a bit higher percentage of his value than ARod, so he goes second with ARod fourth.  Nick Swisher hits a lot of homeruns, so we'll pass him over in favor of Derek Jeter for the leadoff spot.  While Jeter's a few runs worse than Matsui and Posada, his baserunning likely makes him just as valuable overall, and a better option for the lead-off position.  If the hitting gap were larger, leading off with Matsui wouldn't be all that crazy.  For now we have Jeter -- Tex -- XXX -- ARod.

The next two best hitters are among Swisher, Matsui, and Posada, all similarly productive.  Matsui and Posada are quite similar, and the best use of Swisher would be in the #3 hole, as he's a low-AVG, high-HR guy.  Matsui will go fifth and Posada sixth, in order to avoid two lefties back-to-back based on Cano and Damon coming up, leaving Jeter -- Tex -- Swisher -- ARod -- Matsui -- Posada right now.

Now we've got Cano and Damon.  Cano projects as a slightly better hitter, although Damon's the better baserunner.  It's a crapshoot whether you want the slightly better hitter first or the good baserunner ahead of a singles hitter.  Gardner rounds out the order, based on spring rumors, although CHONE actually projects Melky to post the better line in 2009:

  1. Jeter
  2. Teixeira
  3. Swisher
  4. ARod
  5. Matsui
  6. Posada
  7. Damon
  8. Cano
  9. Gardner

In addition to starting against lefties, Nady should see plenty of pinch hit appearances when the opposing team brings in their LOOGY to face the three lefties at the bottom of the order.  A simple weighted average of runs per 150 puts the Yankee lineup at 120 runs better than average, thanks in part to eight out of nine spots projecting as above-average hitters.

Summary

Remember, batting orders are a bit overrated.  But in order to squeak out that one extra win (which costs $4.5M on the free agent market and is worth perhaps 10% in playoff probability for a team in contention), filling out lineup cards based on the above thought process is a smart move.  To really make the tough decisions, heuristics aren't enough -- a simulation is the way to go.  And when you're talking about a tenth of a win, keeping hitters happy is probably the more important consideration.

To optimize the lineup, put your three best hitters in spots #1, #2, and #4, with #1 favoring low-HR, high-OBP players, #2 favoring high-OBP players, and #4 favoring high-SLG players.  Then put your next two best hitters in spots #5 and #3, with the better hitter going #3 only if he derives significantly more of his value from HRs and isn't that much better than the other option.  Then fill your #6 through #9 spots in decreasing order of talent, with consideration given to handedness, baserunning, and contact vs. power hitters when players are close in hitting ability.  Put good baserunners ahead of contact hitters and power hitters behind players who can't avance themselves.

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Great job

Sky. Very interesting stuff. Thanks.

by Jason in NJ on Mar 19, 2009 4:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Tango's blog

has a new discussion on the topic. it’s a continuation off of a different blog though, not BTB.

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/a_word_on_batting_orders/#comments

by Jason in NJ on Mar 19, 2009 6:07 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

sky

how would this lineups approach adjust if the top 4 hitters available were all viewed as middle order rbi men? (pujols, ludwick, glaus, ankiel) do you suggest just picking the player who fits the leadoff role best, or continue to go with the 5th best batter (schumaker) as the leadoff?

by ball in play on Mar 19, 2009 6:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm honestly not sure.

I think that situation’s different enough that you really need to run a study to answer the question.

None of the rules from The Book are set in stone. They’re guidelines based on what tends to be true given something like a typical group of players. If you don’t have a typical group of players, well, you need to start from the beginning.

My guess is that Glaus might actually make an ok leadoff hitter, with his projected .370 OBP and sub .500 SLG. Skip only projects at .340/.370, which is pretty bad to put near the top of the lineup. I don’t see anything that’s a nice fit, though, you’re right.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 19, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

an honest answer

is always appreciated. i noticed how you constructed the nyy lineup, using jeter leadoff although he could fall in the 5th best rank, and i agree. i prefer the same with schumaker.
was just reading the link to tango, jason in nj posted above, and tango’s steadfast rule seems to be “the top 5 batters bat in the top 5 slots, in some order or other”.
that does give his lineup construction model, some real world leniency, to adapt to the players each club has available.

after schumaker, i’d prefer someone besides ankiel, to allow some L/R/L stagger to the top 5 spots. ludwick has a very good rate of not grounding into double plays, and glaus seems to be most effecient in the 5 slot.
for me, i like schumaker, ludwick, pujols, ankiel, glaus as a top 5. molina, greene, P, rasmus (second leadoff, if you will).
molina ahead of greene, helps move molina farther from the sac bunting pitcher, avoiding a force at 2B due to molina’s lack of footspeed.

which brings me to another question. would you see rasmus more valuable as the second leadoff / 9th, or his speed in the 6th slot and molina ninth before the top of the order? would molina’s lack of footspeed really clog up the bases with the top of the orders extra base hit potential to drive him around? with ludwick 2nd and pujols 3rd there’s not really a lot of speed being hindered behind molina.
i have always struggled with where to correctly slot any player with molina’s lack of footspeed. thoughts?

by ball in play on Mar 20, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do you insist on putting Pujols third, when it's pretty well shown that's the spot to put your fifth best hitter, usually?

And the reason I finagled Jeter in to the leadoff spot is because he projected 3 to six runs worse than the other options, before considering non-SB baserunning, meaning he’s not worse and isn’t HR heavy, like Swisher. Skip, on the other hand, isn’t even close to being a top three hitter:

R150 Player
54 Albert Pujols
14 Troy Glaus
10 Ryan Ludwick
-1 Rick Ankiel
-8 Skip Schumaker
-9 Colby Rasmus
-10 Yadier Molina
-12 Khalil Greene

I’d go Glaus, Pujols, Ankiel, Ludwick, Schumaker, Molina, Greene, Pitcher, Rasmus based on the CHONE projections.

Glaus hits homeruns, yes, but also walks a lot. Pujols should get tons of PAs. Ankiel hits homeruns. Ludwick’s a solid all around hitter with power. The last four hitters are all similar in production, and all but Greene have the same style (decent OBP, little power). I’m putting the two contact hitters after the heart of the order, followed by Greene’s all or nothing power before the pitcher, and the high walk guy in front of the top of the order.

Regarding Rasmus/Molina,

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 20, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

very good question

here’s my reasoning, and i’m not sure i’m correct.
if we agree P batting 8th is correct, doesn’t the 9th batter (rasmus) then become leadoff after the lineup rolls over? wouldn’t that make pujols the cleanup (best batters 1,2 & 4), four of his 5 PA’s?

i haven’t seen that touched on in this thread or at “the book”. doesn’t that then make albert the #3 batter (when slotted 2nd) four PA out of five, which is where the 5th best batter should go? maybe my reasoning is wrong on 9th being a 2nd leadoff, but it seems to me the reason larussa is batting him ninth this spring

by ball in play on Mar 20, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's built into the analysis already:
if we agree P batting 8th is correct, doesn’t the 9th batter (rasmus) then become leadoff after the lineup rolls over? wouldn’t that make pujols the cleanup (best batters 1,2 & 4), four of his 5 PA’s?

The Book makes a huge point about the lineup being a loop. The first time through the order is one out of about 4.5 times through the lineup. So the other 3.5 times are more important. And they’re all factored in to the linear weights by lineup position. So, yes, that makes the second hitter the third one after the ninth hitter later in the game, but it’s not a rule that the ninth hitter leads off an inning. It’s all built into the analysis.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 20, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok

so the loop value is built in, thanks, that helps.
and you had molina 6th, which is where i’m most comfortable with him.

by ball in play on Mar 20, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the more i look at your lineup,

the more i like it.
your lineup by 2008 ops+…..glaus/124, pujols/190, ankiel/119, ludwick/150, schumaker102, molina/95 through 6 batters.
you flipped schumaker, who needs a platoon with a bench player, and plugged in a better everyday bat vs both in glaus, and gave him 80ish more PA per season.
pujols still gets his 1st inning PA, and a few more per season. if there’s a flaw, it would be the #9 guy producing a lower than expected obp and robbing pujols of rbi opportunities. i suppose that too is factored in the analysis. i doubt tlr would let pujols career 100+ rbi streak become in jepordy by batting him second.

by ball in play on Mar 20, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again, we don't really have a way to know for sure. But it's fun to discuss, right? ; )

I wonder how many runs Pujols would score batting second. 140?

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 20, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mets

The way I think about lineup construction is that its tough to really ever come up with a sort of “Grand Unified Theory” on the subject. To me, when building a lineup, the more important thing is to create a fluid entity, where each hitter’s strengths are enhanced and weaknesses diminished as much as possible. There are so many different ways to be a quality (or poor) offensive player, talking about where to put your “best hitter” or your “best runner” just seems like it will always be an oversimplification. Obviously there are general rules of thumb. You want OBP ahead of power, speed ahead of contact, etc. But there’s always going to be so much tweaking done based on individual strengths and weaknesses.

I also think the argument I’m making is a bit of an overstatement, and its the difference between a handful of runs in a given season, and no more than a win or two. But its something that manager with a good sense of tactics can use to maybe earn his club a few extra wins.

Anyway, the most interesting discussion I had this year on creative lineup construction for the Mets was back when Dunn was available and acting as a polarizing force on Amazin’ Avenue. This was the only lineup I figured would have made sense for Dunn, and its also the only way I could have seen Castillo actually batting leadoff:

Castillo, 2B
Dunn, LF
Wright, 3B
Beltran, CF
Reyes, SS
Delgado, 1B
Church, RF
Schneider, C

First, the obvious is that there’s a ton of OBP in this lineup. The OBP of the 1-5 hitters could easily be in the .370 range. Dunn’s lack of contact won’t hurt so much with Castillo ahead of him. Castillo’s a smart baserunner, but not a burner or a guy whose going to be earning himself extra bases. He may not be able to provide many RBIs from the leadoff spot, but he will get on base and give Dunn lots of chances to get him in from first. After that, you have plenty of power left to drive Dunn in on his walks, and an increasing arc of speed with Wright, Beltran, and Reyes, which would serve to enhance run production from the bottom of the lineup, especially once the power drops off after Delgado.

Really, Delgado becomes almost erroneous in this lineup. His thump isn’t as useful out of the #6 hole with all that speed ahead of him. I almost feel like the Mets could get similar production moving Delgado’s contract, bumping Church up a spot, and then putting the Murphy/Tatis platoon at first base and in the #7 hole. You’d get a bit better Lefty-Righty balance at the bottom with the platoon, and even if you lose around 10 homers, there’s a decent chance you’ll get a better OBP down there with Murphy/Tatis. Plus, you’d almost certainly get more contact, at least with Murphy, which would work well with all the speed of Beltran and Reyes. Then you also figure Murphy and Tatis give you average speed, as opposed to Delgado’s poor speed, and you’re probably pretty close to making up for those lost homers.

Its just like I felt like offering Dunn an eight figure contract would have been a waste of resources in any other Mets lineup, paying Delgado $16 million would be a waste of resources in this lineup. This really looks almost as good to me, if not just as good:

Castillo, 2B
Dunn, LF
Wright, 3B
Beltran, CF
Reyes, SS
Church, RF
Murphy/Tatis, 1B
Schneider, C

Even if Delgado becomes a straight salary dump, and you get nothing useful in return except payroll space, that’s still enough money saved to have signed Randy Wolf instead of Tim Redding AND one of Denys Reyes/Will Ohman/Joe Beimel to bolster the middle of the pen. And you’d still probably have another $7-10 million to play with.

Obviously its all moot, because it can’t happen now, nor would it have happened under any conceivable circumstances a few months ago, but if that had been Omar’s offseason after the early bullpen upgrades, I’d be a lot happier than I am now. It is kind of ironic since I was so anti-Dunn under other circumstances, but this is the one way I really think it could have worked, and it really could have easily been at least a five-win upgrade (if you count those pitching upgrades too).

by Meddler on Mar 20, 2009 2:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Meddler

from the reading I’ve done on the subject, Dunn seems like a great fit as a #3 (or #5 or 6) hitter, no? Hitting him 2nd doesn’t make much sense in a lineup like that…put a Beltran or Wright there.

by Jason in NJ on Mar 20, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball Musings

To compare, I ran these lineups through the lineup analysis tool at Baseball Musings.

The suggested Twins lineup from above would score 4.813 rpg. The optimized lineup according to the LA tool would score 4.902 rpg, which is a little than 1 more win over the course of a season. It says: Mauer, Morneau, Span, Kubel, Cuddyer, Crede, Cassila, Gomez, Punto.

The suggested Mets lineup from above would score 4.922 rpg. The optimized lineup according to the LA tool would score 4.962 rpg, which is scarcely a difference worth talking about. It says: Wright, Beltran, Schneider, Delgado, Reyes, Church, Murphy, Pitchers, Castillo. (I used .175/.140 for the pitchers).

The suggested Yankees lineup from above would score 5.657 rpg (Wow!). The optimized lineup according to the LA tool would score 5.684 rpg, which is an even smaller difference than with the Mets. It says: Jeter, Teixeira, Posada, ARod, Matsui, Cano, Swisher, Damon and Gardner.

I think the most interesting thing about this is that in each case, the lineup analysis tool took the 6th or 7th hitter from Sky’s lineup, and placed him 3rd. Perhaps that’s just a different angle to The Book’s observation that the #3 hitter is often up with two outs and nobody on, although it seems to ignore The Book’s observation that you want some HR power because of that.

by ChapelHeel66 on Mar 21, 2009 10:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

As we've discussed before, I don't have a ton of faith in that lineup optimizer.

At least to the degree of accuracy we’re talking about.

Putting the seventh hitter third points again to the idea that the third hitter doesn’t need to be all that good.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 21, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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