Decades of Excellence: Cardinal Center Fielders

by erik on Mar 17, 2009 11:48 PM EDT Comment 20 comments

The Cardinals have had a legacy of good center fielders over the years - in the 40's it was Terry Moore, in the 60's it was Flood, in the 80's McGee, Ray Lankford in the 90's and for much of our current decade, Jim Edmonds. We won't include Moore at the moment, Rally's Historical WAR database doesn't go back that far yet, but let's look at the others, starting with their defense.

Curt Flood was pretty darn awesome. Mr. Sexy Half Shirts played shallow and at times made catches look more difficult then they really were, but he had one great season and a few really good ones. Lankford himself had a couple of very nice seasons with the leather, but as typical with someone dubbed "Ray the K", no one noticed. McGee won three Gold Gloves but never had a single season like any of these three, but he was more consistent than Lankford.

No majors surprises here. Lankford was not quite on Edmonds' level but had five seasons in where he was 20 runs above average. Willie McGee had one MVP season, a solid season and not a lot after that. Flood had a mix of good and bad.

Now let's look at their seasonal WAR -

Wear and tear caused Edmonds' career to quickly go splat, but I believe he has a decent argument for the Hall of Fame, though I doubt he gets there. Flood's glove helps him almost catch up with Lankford and his bat, but not quite. Lankford's average WAR per season as a CF was 3.7, Flood's was 3.2. Willie McGee is beloved by Cardinal fans for his hustle and humble demeanor, there is even an effort to retire his jersey number, but when it all shakes out he brings up the rear in this group.

Any suggestions on other teams that have had a legacy of very good/great players at a certain position?

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Nice job eric

This really makes me miss Edmonds. I hope that he gets into the HOF.

vivaelbeñsheets

by vivaelpujols on Mar 17, 2009 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Flood, never knew.

This make me wish there was more footage of Flood. I have seen some highlights of him, but never realized just how good he was.

by BigJawnMize on Mar 18, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Flood had the misfortune

of being the best CF in baseball not named Willie Mays in the ‘60s. Mickey Mantle started the “outfield shuffle” from 1962 on due to injuries, while Duke Snider’s career as a regular CF pretty much ended with the Dodgers’ move to LA in ‘58. Mays’ rolled up WAR numbers of 10.8, 10.2, 10.3, and 10.9 from 1962 through 1965… Yikes!

"In this game, don't nobody know nuthin' about nuthin'." -- attributed to Lawrence Peter "Yogi" Berra

by The Ol Goaler on Mar 19, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yankees

CF – or pretty much any other position. I’m a Cards fan who hates the Yanks, but you have to admit a lot of talent has played on that field.

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by Toddius on Mar 17, 2009 2:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Brian Gunn

may help the discussion with this article from 2006.

Cards’ First basemen (Mize, Musial, McGwire, Pujols, Bottomley…)

Yankee CFs (DiMaggio, Mantle, B. Williams, Bobby Murcer)

Red Sox LFs (Williams, Manny, Rice, Ruth, Yaz)

by sra on Mar 17, 2009 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Those are good lists

but I don’t usually think of Musial as a 1B, though I know he played there, too.

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by Toddius on Mar 18, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you...

but his baseball reference page says he played about 1000 games at 1B and 1800 in the OF. The list of Cards’ 1B is forever long, too. I know using WARP3 isn’t great because of its low replacement, but from 1923-2005 the Cardinals 1B have averaged 5.7 WARP3. That still seems an pretty impressive 80+ years at one position.

The Braves 3b v. Phillies 3b would be interesting with Eddie Matthews, Chipper Jones, maybe Bob Horner against Mike Schmidt, Scott Rolen, Dick Allen.

by sra on Mar 18, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't Forget

Keith Hernandez in the list of Cards 1Bmen

by ebo on Mar 19, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe I'm insane, but...

It seems criminal to me that Edmonds is a borderline HoFer. Even considering that horrific decline, he was worth above six WAR for six straight years. That’s pretty ridiculous.

by jwiscarson on Mar 17, 2009 3:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

There is no possible way calling Edmonds a borderline Hall of Famer is insane.

Anyone who calls him less is the one who’s insane.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Mar 18, 2009 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

vivaelbeñsheets

by vivaelpujols on Mar 18, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he meant that Edmonds shouldn't be borderline, he should be a lock.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 18, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah.

Maybe not a first-ballot HoFer (if you put any stock into “rating” players that way), but he definitely belongs.

by jwiscarson on Mar 18, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

by JI on Mar 20, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Edmonds = Koufax?

To me Edmounds is the postion player equal to Sandy Koufax career-wise. They both burned incredibly bright, but wear and tear took it away from them in an instant. Edmonds time with the Angels is kinda like Koufax’s early struggles with the Dodgers when he should have been in the minor leagues. Koufax clicks for 6 of the best seasons ever from ‘61-’66 kinda corresponds with Edmonds time with the Cards from 2000-2006. The wheels came off for Koufax because of arthritis and Edmonds because of about 20 different types of injuries.

The problem for Edmonds hall bid is for the 7 years he played near his peak you could argue there was always a better player playing (on his own team). Koufax was the best pitcher in baseball ‘61-’66 and maybe the best player in baseball for a couple of those. Basically Edmonds was an MVP trophy away.

by BigJawnMize on Mar 18, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess.

Edmonds’ time with the Angels was pretty good, though, with WAR seasons of 6, 5, 4, and, 4. In total, he had 7 seasons above 6 WAR and 10 above 4 WAR. Koufax, while I’m no expert, looks to have had six really good seasons (some just awesome) and a couple average ones.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 18, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs