My most recent offering at The Hardball Times takes a look at the career values of Mike Piazza (all...

My most recent offering at The Hardball Times takes a look at the career values of Mike Piazza (all hit), Ivan Rodriguez (all field), and Johnny Bench (a lot of each) -- good idea, Dan. To give away the punchline in the incessant Piazza vs. Bench debate, Piazza leads in career hitting RAA by 158 runs and Bench leads in career catcher defense RAA by 158 runs. All three have remarkably similar Hall of Fame cases based on Sean Smith's WAR calculations.

8 months ago Sky Kalkman 17 comments 0 recs |

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Run-scoring environment.

Looking at the years Bench and Piazza played, the average R/G in their leagues over their careers was 4.63 for Piazza and 4.05 for Bench. So Bench’s offensive RAA provided the offense of an average team for 65.43 games while Piazza’s was 87.04. Factoring the difference in defense, I think that clearly gives the edge to Bench.

by rglass44 on Mar 12, 2009 11:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes, based just on the hitting and catcher defense RAA numbers, that's true.

When converting to WAR, run environment is accounted for. And Bench’s defensive value (position and fielding) off of catcher doesn’t help him at all.

Overall, as the graph suggests, Bench holds a small lead over Piazza over their best ten years, and held on a little longer.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 12, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

WAR does account for run-scoring environment?

Cool. I didn’t realize that.

by rglass44 on Mar 12, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

For Dave...

Career paths putting seasons in order.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 12, 2009 12:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Are you sure that Piazza's season seven is correct?

His WAR for FLA was -0.2, for LAN 0.8, and for NYN 5.6.

by jwiscarson on Mar 12, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well there's something embarassing.

I didn’t even notice seasons split between teams were separated. I’ll get back to work to correct the graphs.

Thanks for the heads up.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 12, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No problem.

I thought “Wow, he must’ve been injured that year” when I saw the horrific spike. I glanced at his Florida line and realized what happened.

Standardization in these sorts of things would be really, really nice.

by jwiscarson on Mar 12, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What do you mean by standardization?

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 12, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

BR, for instance

provides a full-season data line and breaks down the season by teams. Fangraphs provides one full-season line. Baseballprojection only provides the teams, with no full-season sum.

Just a pet peeve of mine.

by jwiscarson on Mar 12, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Correction:

Fangraphs does break down seasons by team if you click Show Partial seasons.

by jwiscarson on Mar 12, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gotcha.

Here’s the revised graph. Actually, it’s not revised for Pudge’s 2008 split season. But his piece with the Yanks’ was 0 WAR, so just ignore that last data point.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 12, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bench held on longer than Piazza.

Pudge didn’t have as high of a peak as either one.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 12, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Still shocking to see that spike in Bench/Piazza

at season six.

Those have to be the two best seasons ever for a catcher… Although I wonder if Yogi Berra could challenge those numbers.

by jwiscarson on Mar 12, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good golly miss Molly @ Piazza's peak.

One of those “I know but every time I see it I still freak out” things.

And Pudge is the best catcher ever in your assessment, right? I imagine also the best player, too.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Mar 12, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whoa whoa.

And Pudge is the best catcher ever in your assessment, right?

I never said that. Although your next comment makes me think you’re kidding. I was actually a bit surprised how well he came out looking at this.

Some other guys belong in the discussion that I looked at: Ted Simmons, Gary Carter, Tenace (although not a 90% catcher guy), and more. I had to choose just a few for the article.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Mar 12, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I was kidding.

But what would I have to do to put you on the Pudge bandwagon?

Also, around the time I started looking at more advanced numbers was about the time I started thinking Gary Carter was about as underrated as a recent first-ballot Hall of Famer could be. In a revisionist MVP project a while ago I had him in several MVP arguments.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Mar 12, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs