Friday High Fives: Best General Managers Of The Last Ten Years
by Sky Kalkman on Feb 27, 2009 12:00 PM EST
123 comments
Friday High Fives is back for its second installment, complete with a spiffy new logo created by professional graphic designer Graham. Our question this week: Who are the top five general managers of the last ten years? Please welcome Erik into the fold, hope you'll still enjoy the game as Harry and Dan take the week off. Five points for a first place vote down to one point for a fifth place vote:
| General Manager | RJ | Sky | GG | Chris | Erik | Total |
| Billy Beane | 4 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 19 | |
| Theo Epstein | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 17 | |
| Andrew Friedman | 3 | 1 | 4 | 3 | 11 | |
| John Schuerholtz | 2 | 3 | 5 | 10 | ||
| Mark Shapiro | 3 | 4 | 7 | |||
| Terry Ryan | 2 | 1 | 3 | |||
| Walt Jocketty | 3 | 3 | ||||
| Pat Gillick | 2 | 2 | ||||
| Kevin Towers | 2 | 2 | ||||
| Chuck LaMar | 1 | 1 | ||||
| Larry Beinfest | 1 | 1 | ||||
| Josh Byrnes | 1 |
Individual commentary after the jump.
Chris
- John Schuerholz - If you've won your division 15 times, you're probably John Schuerholz.
- Theo Epstein - Having a truck load of money surely helps, but Theo's made some good moves in his time with the Red Sox. Getting David Oritz -- and his +4-6 wins per season -- for nothing was a very good (to say the least) move. I've also liked the way the team has drafted.
- Andrew Friedman - Only turned the Rays around because of Chuck LaMar's previous good work -- thanks, Joe Buck! -- but seriously, he's done a fabulous job in Tampa Bay so far.
- Kevin Towers - I think he's underrated-ish. Makes prudent moves. San Diego should dip him in bronze and turn him into a statue after his fleecing of Texas (Adrian Gonzalez and Chris Young for Adam Eaton and Akinori Otsuka).
- Josh Byrnes - I've generally liked the moves he's made -- outside of the terrible Brynes extension -- and he seems to be one of the better young GMs in the game.
Graham
- Billy Beane - No one's done more with less, and would you expect anyone else atop with a guy with an A's logo as an avatar?
- Theo Epstein - Yeah he gets a lot of money to spend but so do the Mets, Tigers, and plenty of other franchises and none have done what Theo has this decade.
- Mark Shapiro - Another do more with less in the Beane mold, but to a lesser degree.
- Pat Gillick - This is a 10 year exercise and few GM's have had the success Gillick has had in that time, with two separate franchises to boot.
- Larry Beinfest - If you thought Beane and Shapiro work with less, the Marlins payroll might be halve of those guys' teams, yet their farm system is stacked yet again.
Sky
- Billy Beane - Sure the it's been a couple years since a playoff appearance, but remember the early 2000s? Succeeding with a low payroll is a huge thing in my book.
- Theo Epstein - Yes, the Red Sox are like the Yankees to everybody but the Yankees, but Theo really does know what he's doing. If forced to run a low payroll team, I'm sure he could do it. Just look at the Boston farm system.
- John Schuerholtz - Mastermind of the Braves for the last fifteen years. Enough said.
- Terry Ryan - Low payroll, awesome talent. Only thing keeping him from a top three spot is a systemic penchant for some seriously clunker moves mixed in with the good ones.
- Andrew Friedman - Am I overreacting to one season and two off-seasons? Maybe a bit, but Friedman obviously gets it. If I were to pick a GM for my favorite team going forward, Friedman would probably rank even higher.
- Others considered: Byrnes, Shapiro, Dombrowski, the new Kenny Williams, Ricciardi, and not Bill Bavasi.
You
What do you think? Who would be in your top five? Where did we miss the boat?
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I'm a bit surprised at the lack of Brian Cashman.
by R.J. Anderson on Feb 27, 2009 12:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
you know, since you're on the panel, you could have rectified that by voting for him.
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by larry on Feb 27, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say he deserved to be on there.
I figured someone would’ve had him though.
by R.J. Anderson on Feb 27, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i know. i would have thought you would think more highly of your friends on the panel.
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by larry on Feb 27, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No love for Walt?
Wow Walt Jocketty may have made a few bad moves towards the end of his time with the Cards (Mulder for Haren) but he was a great GM for the Cardinals for quite a few years. He built a very solid team that won year in and year out. 2 trips to the World Series, and 1 World Series title?
Yeah sorry call me when Billy Beane wins in the playoffs
by thoran85 on Feb 27, 2009 12:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Billy Beane doesn't play baseball anymore
It’s also interesting that you give that much credit to a GM because his 83-win team won a World Series…..the same GM who made the Haren/Mulder trade with Beane.
I'm starting to like our bullpen......Wuertz and all.
by scatterbrian on Feb 27, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who also acquired Rolen, Edmonds, and McGwire
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 27, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
last ten years
Walt clearly lost his magic towards the end, but the question was who was the best gm in the last ten years.
in the last ten years, Walt acquired Jim Edmonds, Scott Rolen, Adam Wainwright, Edgar Renteria, Daryl Kile and to a lesser extent, a declining Larry Walker, Fernando Vina, Royce Clayton and Will Clark in trades.
I’d say that is pretty good.
by erik on Feb 27, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i should add
under his watch the farm system was absolutely pathetic, causing me to demerit him some.
I like Friedman and wanted to include him, but the track record isn’t quite long enough yet.
by erik on Feb 27, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Farm System
The farm system did become barren while he was on the watch, but its not like the Cardinals didn’t get some good players from the system while he was GM. e.g. Pujols, Molina, Morris
Walt also added Woody and Suppan, and Izzy
Sorry scatterbrian but Walt has quite an impressive resume. Plus if you actually paid attention you would know that the ’06 team was not just an 83 win team, they had won 105 and 100 games the two years before and had the most wins in franchise history through April. The team was decimated by injuries during the season, and came together again right before the playoffs started.
Walt Jocketty last ten years:
6 playoff teams
5 division titles
2 NL pennants
1 World Series Title
Bill Beane:
5 playoff teams
4 division titles
0 AL pennants
0 World Series Titles
by thoran85 on Feb 27, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
Jocketty has been awesome, and probably deserves to be up there higher. (Friedman, as great as the Rays have become, has only been GMing Tampa for three years, and inherited a hell of a farm system.)
My beef is with casting the blame of poor playoff performances on Beane. The players and manager play a bigger role in on-the-field success, and there’s also a fair amount of luck involved. In other words, you cannot really blame Beane for Jeremy Giambi not sliding, of for Eric Byrnes and Miguel Tejada forgetting how to run the bases, or for Jermaine Dye fouling a ball off his tibia and breaking it.
I do understand it’s become fashionable to talk shit on Beane, especially referencing Oakland’s playoff record under him. The fact that they’ve been there that many times is why he deserves credit. A GM’s job is to put the team in a position to win, and Beane has done that better than most over the last ten years. Jocketty too.
I'm starting to like our bullpen......Wuertz and all.
by scatterbrian on Feb 27, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
beane should have never written that book about himself.
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by larry on Feb 27, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just wait til he directs the movie with Brad Pitt!
I'm starting to like our bullpen......Wuertz and all.
by scatterbrian on Feb 27, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not saying
I’m not saying he is a bad GM. He has done more with less then almost any other GM in the game and his done it for more then 10 years, but sometimes management can be blamed for not winning a championship. In my book that moves him down a little. He is certainly a top 5 GM in the game and has been for some time, but Theo and Walt I think have had more success as GM’s over the past 10 years.
by thoran85 on Feb 27, 2009 6:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sometimes management can be blamed for not winning a championship
can you back that up as it relates to Beane?
I'm starting to like our bullpen......Wuertz and all.
by scatterbrian on Feb 27, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How many times was Beane in a division where his team could make the playoffs with 83 wins?
What were the payrolls the two were allowed to use?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Feb 28, 2009 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how many times did beane have to just be better than three other teams?
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by larry on Feb 28, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Those three other teams were pretty good:
Best AL West non-A’s record from 1999 through 2008:
95
91
116
99
93
92
95
89
94
100
AVG = 96.4
Yrs under 90: 1/10
Best NL Cenral non-Cardinals record 1999 through 2007:
97
85
93
84
88
92
89
82
85
AVG = 88.3
Yrs under 90: 6/9
Years Jocketty’s teams were in the top ten in payroll: 2001, 2003 to 2006
Years Jocketty’s teams were in the top fifteen in payroll: 2000 through 2007
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Feb 28, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
is comparing a four team division to a six team division an apples to apples comparison?
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by larry on Feb 28, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure what you're getting at.
All else being equal, wouldn’t the six team division be tougher? But in actuality, the NL Central was a MUCH easier division for the Cardinals over the past ten years than the AL West was for the A’s.
Is there something I’m missing?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Feb 28, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm asking a question.
if a six team division is tougher, could it not be then that would be illustrated in a tighter spread between teams? i don’t know. but i see someone trying to make a comparison between divisions in different leagues with different numbers of teams and i’m wondering if that is an apples to apples comparison.
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by larry on Feb 28, 2009 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't matter
It really doesn’t matter how easy or hard the division is. Plus no one is saying that Billy Beane is a bad GM. However maybe the best, I don’t think so.
So what the Cards had an easier division they made it to the NLCS almost every year they made the playoffs. And twice went to the World Series. Call me when Beane makes it to the World Series.
I like to think that the goal every year is to win the World Series, and yes have a good team every year is great, but not putting together a championship will eventually count against you. Sorry it will.
by thoran85 on Mar 1, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a black and white issue.
Jocketty’s only World Series championship came in a year when his team won 83 games. Less than 1% of teams to win 83 games make the playoffs. The Cardinals shouldn’t have had a chance to win the World Series. That they won? Great. But sneaking into the playoffs and winning a few short series will not convince me that any GM is better than any other GM.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
I was never saying that Beane was not a good GM. Just that maybe he is not the best GM in the game. And that Jocketty should be in the top 5 of the last 10 years of GMs. To do that I was comparing what Beane has accomplished with what Jocketty was able to accomplish with the Cardinals the last 10 years. When you look at what the two have done, there track records are very close, but Jocketty had more postseason success. And the entire goal of franchises that get more then 20k per game is to win Pennants and Championships. Jocketty has done that and put together multiple playoff teams with completely different teams.
by thoran85 on Mar 2, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My point is that your anaylsis needs to pay more attention to context.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but
Yes context can play a role in the analysis. It situations certainly changes between divisions, leagues, and payrolls. But that is true for every single team in baseball. The Yankees are not in the ame situation as the Angels or even the Red Sox. So we can’t compare the success of the two organizations under their respective GMs?
Walt took the Cardinals from a poor team to a consistent winner. Under his moves he was able to raise payroll from the lower half to the upper half in a medium market. He built the franschise to where it is today. And he didn’t just have 3 great players he built his team around. He had an almost completely different team at least 3 times that made the playoffs. 1996, 2000-2002, 2004-2006. Each one of the those runs was built around different players and pitching staffs. Not many GMs were able to sustain the amount of success Walt was able to with the Cardinals and there turn over in players.
He didn’t just build a one year wonder with years of top draft picks. He was able to build a consistent winner that won as many playoffs games as the Red Sox and only beaten by the playoff wins of the Yankees.
by thoran85 on Mar 2, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
Under his moves he was able to raise payroll from the lower half to the upper half in a medium market.
I agree that success will bring increased revenue which will allow for higher payrolls. But simply raising payroll can’t be chalked up to Jocketty.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
by acquiring Mark McGuire he pretty much raised payroll in one move. He then used that bump in attendance to build a real team with continued success that kept the fans coming to the ball park, and therefore allowing the Cardinals to continue to raise their payroll.
by thoran85 on Mar 2, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You need to prove this.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Attendance
1994: 1.8m
1995: 1.75m (first year with Walt)
96: 2.6m (playoff team)
97: 2.6m (half season with McGuire)
98: 3.2m (McGuire HR record)
99: 3.2m
00: 3.3m (playoff team)
by thoran85 on Mar 2, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How much revenue does the attendance increase generate?
How much of the attendance increase can be explained by across-the-board MLB attendance increases after the strike?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll do some more research, but I have class till 3:15 cst
by thoran85 on Mar 2, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't find average payroll for MLB from 1995 till now
by thoran85 on Mar 2, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sky wins (again)
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by larry on Mar 2, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Try here:
http://www.baseballchronology.com/Baseball/Years/2005/Payroll.asp
They go from 2006 back about 20 years. Team and league-average payrolls are listed. Accuracy not guaranteed.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 3, 2009 9:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Attendance
Cardinals attendance vs MLB average attendance was about 2x from 1995-2008.
Using 1995 as a base (the year after the strike and first year under Jocketty)
1996: MLB +20% / Cards +52.9%
1998: MLB +41.2% / Cards +88.24%
2000: MLB +45.4% / Cards + 94.12%
2002: MLB +35.8% / Cards + 82.35%
2004: MLB +45.8% / Cards + 76.47%
2006: MLB +51.8% / Cards +100%
2008: MLB +57% / Cards +100%
Now I have looked at the payroll numbers, but I have not found the avg. payroll of MLB so its hard to really to a correlation. But looking at the cardinals payroll and there relative rank to the rest of the league from 1995-2008 I would say that the success of the team, new ownership, McGuire’s homerun chase, and playoff success all had a significant amount to do with payroll
by thoran85 on Mar 2, 2009 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What are the +%?
% above average? % gain from previous year?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 3, 2009 9:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+/- %
The +/- % was based on using 1995 attendance figures as the base year. This was the first year that Jocketty took over and the year after the strike. You asked if the Cardinals attendance boost was based on the general attendance boost of overall MLB so I compared the too. You will see that years that MLB overall went up were certainly good years for the Cardinals and years that overall attendance went down were also down years for the Cardinals but the growth seems to have out paced the average MLB attendance quite consistently. I also did the year by year growth, but it doesnt really tell you anything differently then using 1995 as the base you for the analysis.
Attendance in 1995:
MLB: 50m
Cards: 1.7m
by thoran85 on Mar 3, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, so all numbers are compared to the MLB average in 2005?
Or are the Cardinals’ numbers compared to the Cardinals’ 1995 number?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 3, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The MLB and Cardinals numbers are +/-% based on the 1995 numbers for each
by thoran85 on Mar 3, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Got it now, thanks for your patience.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 3, 2009 1:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doug Melvin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK, not really, all his success was derived from Jack Zduriencik.
---
Juuuust a bit outside!!
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com
by Jack Moore on Feb 27, 2009 12:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
hiring smart, capable people to work under you is considered one of the more important, if not most important, tasks of a top level manager.
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by larry on Feb 27, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was actually going to come in and campaign for him as well
I thought he would get a point, at least.
The artist formerly known as jihad.
by Jordan M on Feb 27, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How does erik
have 2 4s and no 2s? Is this some sort of rookie hazing ritual?
by chuckb on Feb 27, 2009 12:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm surprised to see Schuerholtz so low...
but seeing as how it’s just based on the past decade I can get that. That being said, if we were to do the last 20 years, nobody else should even have an argument. Still not sure how two people left him off the ballot entirely, though.
As for me, Theo is the gold standard for this decade. For all the people that worry about the Yankees dominating baseball with huge payrolls, I would suggest you complain more about Boston. The combination of mad bank, great player evaluation and a commitment to the minors is a combination we’ve never seen in the free agency era. It wouldn’t surprise me if they win a couple of titles in the next five years and continue to remain a top team for the next decade.
by BraveBronco0121 on Feb 27, 2009 1:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
We should have signed Adam Dunn.
by Smoltz's Beard on Feb 27, 2009 5:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where's the Jim Bowden love?
For the past several years, has done more for the Cincinnati franchise than any other GM, including the one currently employed there.
Bill James used to talk about how one GM would develop a player (gaining excess wins) and the next would pay for the previous one’s work (paying too much for the player; the prime example was, iirc, paying Ellis Valentine $750K to sign with the Angels. James: “This is what Supply-Side Economics is all about.”).
In Bowden’s case, now, it’s the SAME GM paying for both. And Reds fen should be celebrating him.
by klhoughton on Feb 27, 2009 1:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You guys seem to be rating guys by how good they stock their minor league system
You seem to be forgetting signing contracts below costs, avoiding bad contracts, and winning in trades
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Feb 27, 2009 1:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Chuck LaMar was good at all of those things.
by xanthan on Feb 27, 2009 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is definitely why Pat Gillick got votes.
There are no good individual basketball statistics.
54!
by joof on Feb 27, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't all of those things lead to stocking your minor league system?
Avoiding bad contracts means that you are willing to let your minor league prospects develop instead of overpaying for marginal talent. Winning in trades usually means you are getting a nice haul of prospects (or those players who are within a year of breaking out in the majors).
by Wilder. on Feb 27, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which one of these is not like the others?
1. John Schuerholtz
2. Dayton Moore
3. Frank Wren
4. Chuck LaMar
5. Bill Bavasi (Not from the same family tree, but cut from the same cloth.
Bringing you more-or-less replacement level analysis and commentary since sometime in 2008.
by devil_fingers on Feb 27, 2009 2:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
easy
now THAT is well-manicured facial hair. you cant quantify a talent like that!
My millions are unconventional!
by Charlie Scrabbles on Feb 27, 2009 3:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Haha…nice.
Not sure how many people on this site saw it, but in yesterday’s Braves/Astros game the guys in the booth were discussing fantasy baseball and Kruk said that he wanted to draft his team and then just get a call at the end of the year telling him whether he won or lost. He followed that up by saying “that’s what Steve did with the Mets!” Classic.
We should have signed Adam Dunn.
by Smoltz's Beard on Feb 27, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I watched part of that on replay
but I didn’t catch that. That’s now my second favorite Krukism.
BTW, Oswalt looked good. Hanson was a little off, but he’s scary good from what I’ve seen of him.
by Harry Pavlidis on Feb 27, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't even get his name right
I still don’t understand the Billy Beane fetish. You know it’s the other Billy Bean who’s gay, right? I thought the foundational objective in baseball (or any sport) is to win championships. Lightning round: How many World Series titles have the A’s won under Billy Beane careful construction? If you answered ZERO, you’re right and you win a swift kick in the a$$.
And you morons can’t even get John Schuerholz’s name right. That’s some disrespect right there.
1 – Walt Jocketty
2 – John Schuerholz
3 – Theo Epstein
4 – Terry Ryan
5 – Billy Beane
’
by ajj620 on Feb 27, 2009 5:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
how many titles has schuerholz won in the last ten years?
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by larry on Feb 27, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
how many titles has ryan won in the last ten years?
I'm starting to like our bullpen......Wuertz and all.
by scatterbrian on Feb 27, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i was just starting at the top of the list. see my post below.
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by larry on Feb 27, 2009 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s OK to disagree, but don’t be a retard about it.
by xanthan on Feb 27, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The job of the GM is to put the team in a position to win a championship.
What happens after the team makes the playoffs comes down to, let’s face it, a lot of luck. Five playoff appearances this decade is pretty damn impressive for any team; it’s pretty remarkable for a team with a $60M payroll.
by CapgrasDelusion on Feb 27, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he seems to recognize that, at least subconsciously, considering his list contains five GMs with a collective three championships in the last decade
and five overall. if he actually believed that was the goal, this would be the guy arguing for cashman.
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by larry on Feb 27, 2009 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
List is just stupid
I normally really respect everything that this site does, but this one has been bothering me all day. Its not a bad list if the title of the post and the poll was “best GM in the game right now” or “best GM in the past 2 years” but the poll was who were the best GM’s in the past 10 years.
Billy Beane is a very good GM, maybe not 1 but whatever
Theo very good totally with his selection, hard to argue for anyone else
Andrew Friedman on the other hand, has had one good team. Even if it took years to build it was one good team. That made it to one world series with no guarantee they will even make the playoffs next year. this is a 10 year list and the guy who got 3rd no one even knew existed 4 years ago! Him being on the list devalues the entire website!
And again Walt Jocketty got a vote from one person, one person! This is a guy with a better resume then anyone except maybe Theo in the past 10 years
by thoran85 on Feb 27, 2009 5:59 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Him being on the list devalues the entire website!
you really like hyperbole, huh. it is the best and most overused rhetorical device. ever.
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by larry on Feb 27, 2009 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Best. Comment. EVER!!11!
I'm starting to like our bullpen......Wuertz and all.
by scatterbrian on Feb 27, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Andrew Friedman built a 97 win team on a 40-45 million dollar payroll.
With a team that had no history of success and low placement on the revenue and fanbase curves.
by R.J. Anderson on Feb 27, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
shoot, this website is starting to look like citigroup
how low can the value go? where’s the kalkman to defend his boy?
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by larry on Feb 27, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
here's how low
didn’t you guys mess up the tabulation of the votes? i’m assuming ‘GG’ is Graham – and he didn’t vote for friedman, he voted for epstein. so it should be epstein #1 and friedman tied with shapiro. right?
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by larry on Feb 27, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What a point!
You are so right, one year of success = one of the best GMs over the past 10 years.
Ok maybe not
by thoran85 on Feb 27, 2009 6:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
let's see your list.
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by larry on Feb 27, 2009 6:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So you're also campaigning for Brian Sabean and Brian Cashman, right?
by R.J. Anderson on Feb 27, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Over Friedman? Yes in a heart beat, this was a list that formed accomplishments from the past 10 years of being a GM. A one year turnaround does not deserve to be on the list. Talk to me in 5 or 6 years and we will see if he is still on the list
by thoran85 on Feb 27, 2009 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You would take Sabean over Friedman? Jesus Christ.
by kensai on Feb 27, 2009 9:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
tough call
Christ does have a good sense on dealing with injured players.
by Harry Pavlidis on Feb 27, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He does do unto others
I’m sure he has better things to do, but he could GM my team.
by erik on Feb 28, 2009 12:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not sure it's that ridiculous.
friedman has delivered one great season. he’s built a great farm system and it’s paying dividends already. but it is a bit much to be placing him in the top five of GMs over the last ten years. and, if we’re being honest about sabean, he had a pretty great run in the early half of this ten year period we’re discussing here. as much as people seem to want to get away from results on the field, he’s delivered the goods pretty well there and also in the coffers. the last few years haven’t been kind and that’s certainly a rather big demerit. but he has had a pretty good offseason and he’s got young pitching in the majors to build around and, down on the farm, bumgarner, posey, villalona, alderson, gillaspie… i’m once again wondering if the seamheads are getting a little too into lockstep about the usual bete noirs without actually thinking about it.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Feb 27, 2009 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brian Sabean theater
Sabean- I need a catcher coming off of a .300+ batting season maintained by a .335 BABIP and a 4.7 walk rate who is going to be a free agent in a year
Ryan- OK. I need two excellent pitching prospects and a reliever coming off of a 12 and 4 season with 2.96 ERA and a 95 MPH fastball.
Sabaean- Sounds fair.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2009 3:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
andrew friedman theater
we invested approximately $5 million into a prized asset but i will let it go for $100K. that asset has only produced about $27M in value the past two seasons and the meter will run on that for another four years. oops!
larry – you know what happens when you’ve been in a job for as long as sabean? mistakes. i’m sure our superstar friedman will make a few more before he’s been in the job for twelve years, too.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Feb 28, 2009 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Peirzinsky for Liriano, Bonser and Nathan isn't just a mistake
it shows a complete lack of good judgment. One year of Pierzinsky isn’t worth one of those young pitchers, much less 3.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"pierzynski"
and i think you just defined mistake, though your addition of “complete” seems to be yet another instance of a totally and completely unnecessary use of hyperbole. a GM who has a farm system like the giants’ would be hard-pressed to have a complete lack of good judgment.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Feb 28, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The state of the farm system doesn't tell a lot about the GM
GMs aren’t that responsible for scouting and drafting players, they are much more responsible for what they do with them. In the Pierzynski trade, Sabean displayed a complete* lack of good judgment.
I don’t know that much about Sabean and the state of the Giants at the time. I know that this was in the Bonds era, so the Giants were probably at the edge of contending. However, Sabean should have known that Pierzynski just wasn’t that good of a player. He gave up WAY to much for a one year rental, especially for one who isn’t that good.
I have the same criticism of Walt Jocketty in the Mulder trade. However, the package he gave up was less than what Sabean gave up for AJ, and Mulder was a better and more consistent player than AJ.
*I’m not saying that he always has bad judgment, but in that situation he clearly did to a pretty large extent.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 1, 2009 3:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
GMs are responsible for their employees and the decisions made by the organization, especially the kind of big ones.
his employees are the ones doing the evaluating and reporting to him. and i’m pretty darn sure that the GM is the one who is making the decision about whom a team is drafting with their first round pick. kind of ridiculous to assert otherwise. i’m also pretty sure that when a team makes a franchise record expenditure on a 16 year old amateur free agent, the GM is kind of in the room on that one, too.
it’s also rather odd to assert that sabean should receive little to no credit for the decisions about whom to add to the organization if they’re young but when it’s time to lay blame for the decisions about whom to add to the organization when they’re a little older, it’s all sabean. does not compute. he’s the GM. it’s all on his head. that’s the way this business works.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 1, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I am saying
that Sabean’s main job isn’t scouting and drafting players. He has people who are much better at that to do it for him. Yes, he makes the final decisions, but he doesn’t have that much of an impact on the actual process.
His main job is making major league transactions. He uses the assets that he has, whether it be free agent dough or prospects, to acquire better players.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 2, 2009 1:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
GM's also...
Decide how much to invest in scouting and drafting players. Decide what types of players to sign. Decide who to hire to do that stuff.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 10:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so we've eliminated scouting amateur players from the GM's job. doesn't scout major league players either. doesn't scout his own farm system. what exactly does a GM do?
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 2, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's funny that one of the arguments against Beane
is that he hasn’t won any titles.
On a website dedicated to looking at statistics, y’know, all those nice little things that go beyond the box score , you’d think that people would understand that the playoffs are a crap shoot, an incredibly small sample size.
After 162 games, the post season comes down to one series at least and three at most. Like so many people have said, the GM puts the team into position to win. Billy Beane can’t be all 25 men on a roster. And he’s done pretty damn well for a guy with a pocketbook the size of these guys.
by NateHST on Feb 27, 2009 9:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well at some point
Is it not a strike against him that they haven’t even made the WS and got swept out in their one ALCS?
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Feb 28, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, if Beane kills whoever his manager is at the time
and makes Cust play all 9 positions and Giambi pitch.
His team hasn’t made it to the World Series because his players haven’t played well in the postseason. His players playing poorly in the postseason is not his fault. If they were all crappy players, then yes, it would count against him. But he’s put good players on the field with a tiny pocketbook, and put them in a position to win.
by NateHST on Feb 28, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jocketty not being higher is kind of astounding to me, but whatever.
Ryan deserves to be top 5. A fourth and fifth place vote is a disgrace to what the man did for his organization.
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 27, 2009 10:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Friedman will become a great general manager
but he has only had one successful season. Here was clearly the GM of year last season, but to call him the best of the decade is ludicrous.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Feb 28, 2009 3:33 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I was tempted to put Sabean on my list, but I couldn’t add a GM who’s responsible for maybe the worst baseball contract in the history of baseball.
by xanthan on Feb 28, 2009 10:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
but it's not over yet! maybe things will turn around!
don’t stop believin’
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Feb 28, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's got a great head start on being the worst GM of the NEXT five years
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Feb 28, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not possible with the farm system and young talent he has.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Feb 28, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about...
Epstein
Ryan
Beane
Schuerholz
Gillick
Epstein was dealt a great hand but he’s played it well. Ryan did a better job than Beane at keeping his farm system flush. Schuerholz won something like 87 consecutive division titles during his tenure. Gillick just pushed the Phillies over the top and knew to leave on a high note.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Feb 28, 2009 2:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
"A better job than Beane at keeping his farm system flush"?
I don’t see any evidence at all of this being true.
Many years from now, when his name's recalled
Everyone will say, "He should have passed the ball"
-- Al Stewart, "Football Hero"
by PaulThomas on Feb 28, 2009 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You own a copy of Baseball America's Prospect Handbook?
Ryan stepped down at the end of the 2007 season. BA ranks the farm systems every year and I have the rankings through 2002. So, 2008-2002…
Twins: 18-8-6-4-5-4-6
A’s: 27-27-26-8-17-22-19
The 2008 rankings occurred prior to the teams trading Santana, Haren and Swisher, so both would earn higher scores if BA had re-done their rankings on the eve of Opening Day, 2008. Even after acknowledging that BA has always placed an emphasis on the type of raw athletes the Twins tend to sign, I’d say at least one major source of prospect information would consider Minnesota as having a superior track record in keeping their system stocked for most of the 21st century.
I can only go back to the 2006 pre-season using Sickels’ texts but the score still leans towards the Twins.
2008 Minnesota/Oakland (Again, before the trades.)
B+: 1/1
B: 3/2
B-: 4/3
C+: 12/7
2007
A: 1/0
B+: 2/1
B: 3/2
B-: 5/4
C+: 14/10
2006
A: 1/0
A-: 0/1
B+: 3/2
B: 3/5
B-: 4/2
C+: 12/7
You may not agree with my conclusion, but at least you don’t have to wonder about evidence anymore!
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Feb 28, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is certainly the most hyperbolic thread. ever.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Feb 28, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that is hyperbolic
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 1, 2009 3:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is the single most obvious statement anyone has ever made
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Mar 1, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
-
---
Juuuust a bit outside!!
http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com
by Jack Moore on Mar 1, 2009 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I missed something
But wouldn’t Larry Beinfest be higher? I mean, talk about doing a lot with a little. I mean, look at the roster of the Marlins 2003 championship team and think about how good that was (I know that was his first season) but they have been competitive with much, much less than any of the other teams in the league, just surprising to me he only got 1 point.
I could be wrong though
by staplemaniac on Mar 2, 2009 12:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Marlins
have to rebuild every 2 or 3 years. They just don’t have the salary to sustain any kind of long term success. He doesn’t compare well with the other GM’s because his teams are usually out of contention, however he is probably the best at what he does.
vivaelbeñsheets
by vivaelpujols on Mar 2, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He got something for D-Train
lol
I could be wrong though
by staplemaniac on Mar 2, 2009 1:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If I hadn't flaked last week
Beinfest would probably have been 3 or 4 for me.
by Dan Turkenkopf on Mar 2, 2009 7:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point about Beinfest.
I honestly couldn’t have told you who the GM of the Marlins currently is. Which both says something about me and the national coverage of the Marlins. I’d consider him for the top five, although I’m not sure he’d make it.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting question
Did Beinfest do enough as the GM to earn credit for the ’03 title or was he just in the right place at the right time and benefitted from the work of his predecessor?
He signed Pudge (843 OPS) as a FA while trading for Juan Pierre (361 OBP, 65-20 SB/CS) and Mark Redman (117 ERA+ in 190.7 IP). He fired Jeff Torborg and replaced him with Jack McKeon. He also traded for Ugueth Urbina in July and signed Chad Fox in August to strengthen his bullpen.
On the flip side he already had Penny, Pavano, Willis and Beckett (remember, Beckett was huge in the post-season) in the rotation, plus Derrek Lee and Mike Lowell in the line-up. He was also able to call up Miguel Cabrera at mid-season.
I think Beinfest is certainly a worthy candidate for this list but his ranking would depend on how much you think the ’03 champs were “his” team.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Mar 2, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i find this an interesting topic. apparently others do, as well.
a couple questions for those with more knowledge than me:
who do people think has been the most influential GM of the last ten years?
and, i imagine a somewhat related question, which GM has had the most of his former employees go on to become GMs for another team?
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 2, 2009 10:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I like that last question.
The John Hart tree is pretty large, no? Schuerholtz? Lucchino? Alderson?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's a question on judging GMs...
Let’s say you wanted to attempt rating GM’s objectively. What factors would you use? Here’s a start:
- wins
- adjusted wins (something like third-order wins)
- payroll
- strength of farm system (as a change from beginning to end of tenure)
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 11:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I've never really looked at 3rd order wins
Do they take strength of division into account?
Hell, why not just give me the “Third Order Wins for Dummies” spiel.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Mar 2, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm no expert, but I believe it's basically
Offensive and defensive linear weights RS and RA and adjusted for strength of schedule. BPro’s implementation uses either no fielding or a bad fielding metric, and their EqA version of linear weights.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You'd want some sort of playoff success thing, too, but probably a lot less than most people think.
Maybe more of a “is this team built for post-season success” rating. Winning short series isn’t really much of a measure of GM talent.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but
Post season success is hard to build for, but for the top franchises its the only thing that matters. the Yankees and Red Sox want to win championships. The A’s just want to compete.
by thoran85 on Mar 2, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Examples
I guess the best example of this would be the Seattle Mariners who won like 116 games and got bounced in the first round. This team was considered to be a huge failure, and yet the GM would recieve more credit then say the Yankees for that year. The Mariners were never able to become a playoff team, and have since fallen off the face of the Earth.
by thoran85 on Mar 2, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would argue that the Mariners WERE a much better team than the Yankees that year.
And, accounting for payroll and accounting for each team’s true talent (not just using wins), it’s likely that the Mariners’ GM did a more impressive job that year than the Yankees’ GM did.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 2, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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