Analyzing Halladay/Lee Insanity with Trade Value Calculator
Roy Halladay is very good. Cliff Lee is very good.
This trade is insanely, insanely mind-boggling, and thus I had to bust out the numbers. This is a trade so epically confusing that I had to actually
So, I am going to use Sky's awesome,amazing, Trade Value Calculator, located here, to see how everything plays out. And provide some commentary, of course. Bah, I really should be sleeping right now.
Part One: The Aces:
First, the surplus value of Roy Halladay: (WAR values from Fangraphs)
| Roy Halladay | ||||
| Year | Sal (M) | WAR | Val (M) | Net (M) |
| 2009 | ||||
| 2010 | $15.8 | 7.0 | $31.9 | $16.2 |
| 2011 | ||||
| 2012 | ||||
| 2013 | ||||
| 2014 | ||||
| 2015 | ||||
| 2016 | ||||
| FA Picks | $5.0 | |||
| Total | $15.8 | 7.0 | $36.9 | $21.2 |
He has about $21.2MM worth of surplus value, this including draft pick compensation.
Now, he is signing an awesome extension, supposedly worth 3/60. This is because Toronto provided Philly with an extension window, in which. The extension window does, indeed, have value. However, I do not know how to quantify, or remotely estimate, this value, which is one of the reasons I'm posting this thing. If his extension is 3/60, the Phillies would be paying an average of 20MM/yr for him. Which, although it is below his performance value, I can count the number of pitchers who have contracts with AAVs above 20MM on one hand.
Also, ANY player who is approaching free agency has an exclusive negotiating window with his team; it is the period before free agency officially begins.
Now, Lee.
| Cliff Lee |
||||
| Year | Sal (M) | WAR | Val (M) | Net (M) |
| 2009 | ||||
| 2010 | $9.0 | 6.0 | $27.4 | $18.4 |
| 2011 | ||||
| 2012 | ||||
| 2013 | ||||
| 2014 | ||||
| 2015 | ||||
| 2016 | ||||
| FA Picks | $5.0 | |||
| Total | $9.0 | 6.5 | $34.7 | $23.4 |
Lee's got a 23.4MM surplus value. The WAR projections for Lee and Doc were both equally conservative, especially considering league adjustments. You could add 0.5 WAR to Doc or Lee as you see fit.
The big shocker was that Lee, ultimately, has more surplus value than Doc. But, the difference between the salaries is greater than general win values, which is about 4- 4.5MM. [Salary data from Cot's, btw]
Generally speaking, Halladay represents a 1 WAR upgrade over Lee, maybe greater.
Part Two: The Prospects:
I'm going to value the prospects based on Victor Wang's research on prospect valuation, summarized here and here in the Roy Halladay context . I'm going to be very conservative with the prospect rankings, factoring in BA's mid-season top 25, John Sickels' preseason grades and mid-season reviews, and a little eyeballing of who's risen and fallen on these lists, along with where '09 draftees may rank on these lists (pretty much, if someone is on the fringe between two stratas of value, they get bumped down). Yeah, this is freaking rough. Here is what I'm gleaning.
Phillippe Aumont: [Top 76-100 pitcher]: $9.8MM
Juan Ramirez: [Grade B pitcher]: $7.3MM
Tyson Gillies: [Grade C hitter 22 or younger]: $0.7MM
Travis D'Arnaud: [Grade B hitter] : $5.5MM
Kyle Drabek: [Top 26-50 pitcher]: $15.9MM
Michael Taylor: [Top 26-50 hitter]: $23.4MM
I'm especially unsure on Aumont and Ramirez, especially since their pedestrian numbers came in an extreme hitters' park.
Sources:
BA Phillies 2010 Top 10 (they haven't released them for AL teams yet)
BA MIdseason Top 25 (Drabek = #24, Taylor = #23)
Sickels' Mariners '09 Prospects:
Part Three: The Results:
Now, the tables!
Philly:
Gives: 44.8MM surplus value (Drabek, Taylor, and D'Arnaud) + 23.4MM surplus value (Lee) = 68.2MM value
Gets: 39MM surplus value (Halladay, Aumont, Ramirez, Gillies) + 6MM salary relief = 45MM value
Net: 23.2MM deficit
Seattle:
Gives: 17.8MM surplus value (Aumont, Ramirez, and Gillies)
Gets: 23.4MM of surplus value (Lee)
Net: 5.6MM surplus
Toronto:
Gives: $21.2MM surplus value (Halladay) + 6MM salary relief = 27.2MM value
Gets: $44.8MM surplus value (Drabek, Taylor, and D'Arnaud)
Net: 17.6MM surplus
Of course, you can factor in increased playoff probability for Seattle and Philadelphia. Also, of course, the increased marginal value of a win, since each additional win is worth more for a contending team than a non (Dave Cameron explains it here).
Toronto and Seattle clearly came out on top, as Seattle gave up less long-term value than they received, which is very, very rare. Toronto received a massive, massive amount of surplus value and two players who should put them back on the map pretty soon.
Philly, on the other hand, paid dearly for a 1 WAR improvement. Despite the fact that they're a contending team and have the payroll resources to overpay for wins, this was a massive overpay. They paid about 23.2MM for an upgrade that will be about 1.5 WAR at best.
Of course, there is the quantifiable value of an extension window. Which is a question in and of itself. The obvious upgrade which the Phillies receive for 2011-2013, at a team friendly price, must be worth something, especially since the Phils negotiated the extension before the trade went through.
It is very possible that Halladay will produce 23.2MM of surplus value throughout the tenure of his extension. A very, very tall order considering his age, but very plausible.
This isn't "OMG FIRE AMARO" bad, but its questionable at best for Philly.
DISCLAIMER: Yes, I know the deal is still tentative. Hah.
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12 comments
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Comments
Plus they get a better pitcher for more years. I don’t think they make this trade if they think they could have signed Lee and that he would have taken a reasonable amount (whatever they determined was reasonable for him).
As a Jays fan it’s nice to see that Halladay finally gets to play for a winner and it isn’t Boston or NYY either, which makes it all the better for us (fans).
by Belligerent Burkie on Dec 15, 2009 8:39 AM EST reply actions
Great work done here, but the extension is critical to Phillies' surplus value
If Halladay gets 3/$60M and produces even 6 WAR for each of those years, they’re getting an additional $21M in surplus over the life of the contract.
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My biggest question is
Is the Doc extension significantly less than it would have been in terms of market value.
The Phillies definitely got a bargain in terms of years, but AAV not so much. Halladay will outperform a 20MM AAV, but I doubt he would have received significantly more on the open market. I can’t see anyone, even the Yankees, giving a 32 year old pitcher CC Sabathia type money. Only two pitchers have AAV contracts over 20MM, CC and Johan and they both signed their contracts at much younger ages than Halladay.
Are the Phillies getting enough savings over the next few years in order to justify giving up the prospects?
The extension decreased the risk of Halladay declining/getting hurt in later years by guaranteeing fewer years, but by how much?
"I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it" ~ Mae West
I think it’s definitely less than market value, or if you want to be conservative, it’s at market value but only for 3 years (when a pitcher of his caliber would normally get 6).
But I keep railing against this notion that the “exclusive negotiating window” had a ton of value in this transaction. Doc insisted on an extension, so it’s not like the window was something that Anthopoulos was granting of his own accord in order to maximize his return. Granted, it doesn’t mean the window was without value, but it wasn’t nearly valuable enough to account for the gap in prospects in this deal.
To me, the open market value is largely irrelevant.
The extension was going to be signed for the deal to go through, so you have to do the calculation with that included. We have no idea what would have happened if they waited a year and tried to sign him, but it almost definitely would have been for more money.
The Phillies were probably the “loser” of the trade, but not by much, and have really helped their outlook for the next few years.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 15, 2009 8:38 PM EST up reply actions
Focusing on the Roy contract, x + 27.2 = 44.8 so the Phillies must be getting 17.6M value out of Roy’s extension for this deal to make sense. I don’t know how you can reason that Roy at 3/60M doesn’t get you that. As SFiercex4 stated above, even if he only produces 6 WAR for the next 3 years his surplus value is 21M. To say that you aren’t getting the 17.6M value from that means you must be able to sign him next year cheaper than 3/77.6M which I just can’t see is feasibly possible barring injury in 2010. He would have to have a mid 5 WAR season in 2010 to command less than 3/80M. He’s not taking no damned Philly discount as a free agent I can guarantee you that. And this is assuming the Angels DON’T trade for him this year! All signs point to the Roy deal being a win for the Phillies for me. A win for Halladay, financially, maybe not.
Yes but...
If Sabathia and Santana had only signed 3 year contracts they would have been looking at or above 27MM AAV which I think is what Halladay gets if he goes free agent even if he is older than they were. Halladay’s amazing ‘08 and ’09 at the ages of 31 and 32 certainly show no signs of an age-related steep decline in production. 3/80MM sounds about right for an open market Halladay (assuming he doesn’t sharply decline in 2010).
I really really like 3 @ $20M for Halladay.
Not sure why he was willing to sign that, however. Does he really like the northeast? Does he really value joining a winning team?
Considering he will likely be a significantly worse pitcher in four years, I wonder why he didn’t take the risk of pitching one more healthy year and signing 5/6 years at 20-25 million per year?
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The increased security of signing now is nice I spose, but other than that it seems like a poor move for him financially
After pitching in Toronto for his career, he must value the winning team thing a lot.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 15, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
He also will probably be just good enough to sign another big contract at the end of this one
That’ll be the one the signing team regrets.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 15, 2009 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
Totally agree about the 3 for 20,
something I’ve noticed a lot of people don’t realize is that 6 for 20 is the same yearly pay but costs the franchise way more because of the likely declining returns for the last years of the contract. Claims are made that it isn’t a great deal because it’s the same yearly pay. Those people are missing those decline years and the guaranteed 120 million with no escape clause.
And I’m sure that comment is common thought around here, just seen a lot of comments elsewhere that try to make that point.
I used to work with an old man that told me- Son, every workplace has a dumbass. If you don't have one where you work, then I'm afraid you're it.
Oh, and by the way, good job Blicks
The tvc is great for these comlicated trades. I’d like to see one on the Graderson trade, but I suck with prospects/am too lazy to do much research.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 15, 2009 8:52 PM EST reply actions



























