You be the manager: where do you play these infielders?
I received this question in an e-mail today.
I manage and play on a men’s adult baseball team, basically a bunch of professors and grad students, so it’s not elite competition or anything.
We have two starting pitchers, one is a strikeout machine, very hard thrower, and when they make contact on him, it’s usually a fly ball (he’s fastball-change-curve). The other pitcher is a contact pitcher, throws five different pitches and variations on them (fastball-change-curve-
splitfinger-knuckleball), and gets a large number of ground balls. The first essentially has an ERA roughly equal to his runs allowed, or what one would say is normal. The second pitcher, while having a lower ERA, gives up an inordinate number of unearned runs (he also doesn’t hold runners very well)—he puts more balls in play, and therefore there are a lot more chances for errors. The goal here is to cut down on unearned runs, if such a thing is possible. The infield is composed (at present):
1B: poor range on ground balls and positioning, decent arm, excellent receiver of thrown balls at 1st (he’s very athletic, just doesn’t move or position well on batted balls, particularly grounders)
2B: weaker (though not terrible) arm, not as much range as the SS and 3B. He’s also the oldest guy on the team, very athletic for his age, but he is in his 40’s. He gets to balls, just takes a long route to do so and often can’t do much with them when he does get there.
SS: good arm, good range, probably one of the best SS in the league.
3B: rocket arm, strongest on the team, lightning quick reflexes, good range, and probably it would be a push between him and the regular SS – he plays 3B because he joined the team after the SS (this is old-men baseball!, seniority comes into play)
If you were managing this team, would you shift the players in that infield according to the pitcher on the mound (with our strikeout pitcher, I think I’d keep things as they are)? Is there a greater benefit with a ground ball pitcher on the mound to having the best two defenders (the current SS and 3B) up the middle, and moving the current 2B to 3B? We would lose the sure-fire out on any ground ball at 3B, as well as the line drive outs that would go for extra bases otherwise with our current 3B’s arm and glove, but gain a more rangy defender up the middle who is the equivalent of a SS at 2B.
Ladies and gentleman, that's your question. What are your answers?
I'll post my response (for whatever they're worth) later today in the comments.
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I would argue that it depends a lot on whether you believe that the second baseman has the quickness and reflexes to make all the plays at third base. If he has a weak arm then you’re already starting out behind at that position considering how important arm strength is there, so if his quickness is lacking (quickness is more important at third than second, where range is more important) then you’re talking about a potentially massive downgrade defensively at third base in order to get the upgrade at second base.
I would probably go with the plus gloves at SS/3B and the playable glove at 2B, rather than plus gloves up the middle and horrid defense at the hot corner. Then again, it also depends on if you believe that moving the 3B to 2B will make up for the 1B’s lack of range, and whether the guys you’re playing against are generally hitting the ball towards left field or right field.
If the strikeout pitcher is getting all those fly balls
I would guess that the current alignment would work well for him.
As for the GB pitcher, it depends on where those GB are going. Assuming they are going up the middle most of the time with the rest through the holes between SS/3B and 2B/1B then it would make sense to play your best combo of defenders up the middle at 2B & SS. If he’s giving up gb down the lines then your probably better off leaving the 3B as is and hope your 1B can keep the ball in front of him.
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by Tommy Rancel on Dec 11, 2009 11:02 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I would consider switching the 3rd baseman and SS. Both have good range but the quicker reflexes and excellent arm of your present 3rd baseman might help balance the poor range of your 2nd baseman by allowing the SS to cheat toward 2nd. While the great arm would help compensate for the larger hole between short and 3rd on balls to his right.
The quick reflexes and great arm of your present 3rd baseman (new SS) may also allow you to play the 2nd baseman back a step and to his left a step. Having a SS that would be able to cut off more ground balls up the middle and have a better chance of throwing the runner out with that excellent arm and quickness would also help your 2nd baseman’s range because he could play back a step and quickness because he focus more on balls to his left.
I am not sure it matters which pitcher is on the mound. I would just move the 3rd baseman off the line a bit on batters than can’t get around on the hard thrower and that would allow the SS to cheat a bit more to his left to compensate for the 2nd baseman’s weaknesses. As for the 1st baseman, having less of a hole to cover couldn’t hurt and it may even discourage batters from going that way.
I think the defensive positioning is fine.
It sounds like most errors are throwing errors. Those can only be cut down with more practice.
If the guy at 2B isn’t getting to some balls, he needs to read what the next pitch is so he can shade himself up the middle or towards the hole.
Many good points
Here was my (fairly long, sort of rambling response). I think many of your points are better, but here we go:
Love the question. I imagine you won’t be surprised that I don’t have a perfect answer for you. In fact, it’s basically just a bunch of disjointed thoughts:
* My inclination with your current SS is to leave him where he is. That doesn’t sound like it’s an option anyway, but it doesn’t sound like he’s hurting you at all and that he has good skills for the position, so I wouldn’t mess with him.
* After that, it comes down to opportunities. How many balls are hit to 2B vs. 3B? And, of those hit to 2B, how many more would your current 3B make if he was moved to 2B? And, perhaps more importantly, how many more balls hit to third would your current 2B NOT make if moved to 3B? It’s hard for me to judge this, because I don’t know your league. In my little league (the only other league I’ve paid attention to aside from MLB), lefties were rare enough that I’d guess that 3B got at least as many balls hit to it as 2B. If that’s true, then I’d advocate leaving your 3B where he is. But I imagine you’re playing at a higher level of competition than I was, and so lefties might be a bit more common…?
I’m not sure if the data would back this up, but my general preference in setting up a defense is to minimize weak spots as much as is possible. It sounds like the current arrangement is doing that. Moving the 2B to 3B might set up a very strong up the middle defense, but at the cost of potentially bad fielding at 3B. I don’t know if that would be worth it. If your goal is to avoid unearned runs, it doesn’t really make sense to me to move your 2B out of position (or maybe it’s not out of position—it depends on if he can consistently make that throw..?).
* In current MLB, guys who play both 2B and 3B tend to be equally good, relative to position average, at both positions. However, it’s certainly the case that a different set of skills are emphasized for each position.
I’m not sure if you’ve heard of the Fan Scouting Report, but it’s an effort to have fans quantify player skills, which are then combined to get (surprisingly good) fielding quality estimates for players. We weight the skills differently for different positions. At 2B, we weight instincts, first step, and hands as the most important skills, with lower weightings pretty much everywhere else. At 3B, we weight arm accuracy as the most important skill, but other skills are weighted such that we value a much more generalized fielder than at 2B. Maybe one approach would be to have you rank each of your players according to the Fan Scouting Report’s skills and then use the weights in that link to calculate the fit of each player for the two positions…and then take the better of the two choices (keeping them as they are, or swapping them). I did something like this for the Reds a few years ago here.
* With respect to the K vs. junkball pitcher issue, is there a difference between the two in the relative proportion of balls going to 2B vs. 3B? I might expect that the K pitcher would have more balls hit to the other side if players are behind on their swings, which would (assuming many more righties than lefties) make range at 2B more important. Your junkball pitcher might have more guys pulling the ball(?), in which case it would put a premium on the 3B position. So, from that, it might be better to leave things as they are for your junkballer but swap them for your strikeout pitcher.
* Another thought I had is something that you just don’t see happen, even though it makes sense (to me, anyway): swap the two players based on the handedness of the batter. For righties, leave them as they are. For lefties, swap them to get your good fielder at 2B. If your 3B would be especially better at turning a double play, I might also do this when you really need a DP. I’d at least consider this kind of thing in close & late situations.
I write at:
Beyond the Boxscore | Red Reporter | Basement-Dwellers.com | Twitter: @jinazreds
And here is the original question asker's response to my thoughts. Includes some more info.
Junkballer vs. strikeout pitcher. That’s the curious thing—the 3B has definitely saved some absolute screamers for both, balls I don’t think really anyone else would get, but for some reason, the strikeout pitcher seems to give (with a few exceptions) a higher percentage of balls to 3B and SS, the junkballer to 2B and SS, but against certain teams, that utterly flips. Against what I consider the best hitting team in the league, with the junkballer pitching, I have IF balls hit to: 6, 6, 4, 1, 4, 6, 3, 3, 5, 3, 5, 4 (one of the 5’s was the only ball to the infield by a LH batter, and I’d say saved 3 runs—the other was another sure double) then, the strikeout pitcher in relief: 5, 5, 3, 6, then another hard thrower relieving: 5, 4.
A typical batted ball IF line for the strikeout pitcher against a good team that also doesn’t strike out much is: 6,3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 5, 6, 1, 6, 1, 1, 2, 5, 6. (only one of those 1’s involved a throw (1-3), two are listed as 1U, and given different book-keepers and how they mark things, that could mean a lineout or a tag on the runner going to first).
I think there might be two things happening, 1. The knuckleball—the way to hit a knuckleball is to wait on it, I wonder if teams anticipating that don’t ‘make do’ on all other pitches, which would account for the distribution to the right side on someone who doesn’t throw all that hard? Is it possible that the knuckleball keeps them off balance—if you’re looking fastball, few pitches will make a hitter look more stupid than a knuckleball in that situation, so you do what you can if it’s not a knuckleball. 2. The strikeout pitcher is a much better fielder, gets into position much better—the junkballer is almost never in position—a ball hit to the right side (what should be his glove side), he just doesn’t finish in a position to field those balls. It’s hard to tell for sure because most of the balls in play by the strikeout pitcher in the IF tend to be popped right back to him, but my experience is that he makes plays there that the junkballer doesn’t.
A fastball-changeup pitcher might see more balls to 3rd that are hard hit, ‘swing hard in case you hit it,’ so they’re more worried about not catching up to the pitches, while with the junkballer, maybe they’re trying to deal with the movement and poke it somewhere at the last second—it’s not like they have to fear being overpowered.
It’s a bit perplexing.
I write at:
Beyond the Boxscore | Red Reporter | Basement-Dwellers.com | Twitter: @jinazreds
I'm getting in on this late, I know
but I don’t think that positioning can do much to account for the issues that he’s having. His 2B and 1B need to play smarter to overcome their lack of range and poor fielding prowess:
- Know what pitch is coming, and shade during the windup in a direction that the ball will most likely be hit.
- Play off tendencies related to how the batters approach or set up in the batters box. Generally, players with a closed stance aren’t going to see the ball as well when facing a pitcher throwing from the same side, so adjust accordingly.
- It also sounds to me like there are some throwing errors involved. If a lot of these are to first base, perhaps you should consider moving your first baseman closer to the bag so he’s there as a target for the throws from the other fielders. He’s got poor range already, and playing closer to the bag may help out the throws from the other players in your infield.
- As for being out of position — he’s not throwing gas, so why is he finishing way out of position? Major league pitchers catchers, and corner infielders work on breaks to the base on balls hit softly to either side, so should your pitchers and catchers — it’s a timing and reaction thing built on specific routine when a ball is hit that direction.
- Do you practice situational defense? Are your fielders set up situationally depending on time, score, and situation (i.e. where runners are, where the go-ahead run is, etc.) This would be another thing to look at. You could probably shift some players around situationally to help with better defense (i.e. you could shade your second baseman closer to 1B with a man on first, allowing him more time to make a play, while covering second with your SS, things like that, etc.)
Please consider any Hot Stove talk in the above comment is spoken under the assumption that the Cardinals are not signing Matt Holliday.
"…..for some reason, the strikeout pitcher seems to give (with a few exceptions) a higher percentage of balls to 3B and SS, the junkballer to 2B and SS, but against certain teams, that utterly flips."
Interesting aside: Years ago when I was pitching in college one of my coaches noticed the same thing (strikeout pitcher, more balls to 3rd and SS). He deduced that the hitters were keying on my fastball so told me to mix more sinkers and off speed stuff in. I did and my sinker kept them off balance, my Ks went up and I was all conference that season.


















