Beyond the Box Score: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: Can Tebow Say No To Anything?

Fun With Sim Scores: The Rest of The Ballot

Last Friday, I introduced my hypothetical Hall of Fame ballot though my version of context adjusted similarity scores.  Today, I'll take a look at those players on the ballot who aren't worthy of my (non-existent) vote.

The two candidates who appear to be getting the most support are Jim Rice and Andre Dawson.  In the case of Rice, it looks like he will be elected this year, after falling just a few votes short in 2008.

Jim Rice:

1. Willie Horton 946
2. Frank Thomas 935
3. Ellis Burks 927
4. George Hendrick 927
5. Vic Wertz 927
6. Bobby Thomson 926
7. Roy Sievers 923
8. Fred Lynn 919
9. Andres Galarraga 918
10. Gil Hodges 917

Not a Hall of Famer on the list.  In case you were wondering, that's not the Big Hurt in the number two spot.  Rice's most similar players were all very good players, but no one really is pushing any of them for the HOF except for Hodges.  There's been a lot of virtual ink spilled discussing whether or not Rice deserves to be elected and I'm not going to rehash them here, but I will say that I think Rice will be one of the least-deserving players elected when he goes in.

Andre Dawson:

1. Billy Williams* 913
2. George Foster 910
3. Goose Goslin* 902
4. Chuck Klein* 902
5. Dave Parker 895
6. Tony Perez* 888
7. Dave Winfield* 886
8. Duke Snider* 884
9. Juan Gonzalez 881
10. Al Simmons* 878

Dawson top ten strongly suggests he should be elected.  However, this is one of those cases Bill James warned about where similarity scores can be deceiving.  All of the Hall of Famers on the list were substantially better offensive players than Dawson.  I think Dawson is helped by the lack of an explicit category for OBP in the sim score calculation.  Granted, Andre played a tougher defensive position for a large portion of his career and played it well.  That might be enough to lift him up to the level of Tony Perez (who had a 122 OPS+ compared to Dawson's 119), but Perez is near the bottom of Hall of Famers and probably got in for his contribution to the Big Red Machine.  Dawson's one of those players who almost perfectly represents the dividing line between the Hall of Fame and the Hall of Very Good.  He doesn't make my Hall, but I don't begrudge any one who would vote for him.

Now let's dive into some of the other players on the ballot:

Star-divide

Jack Morris:

1. Lefty Gomez* 899
2. Whitey Ford* 897
3. Curt Simmons 895
4. Early Wynn* 894
5. Bob Lemon* 884
6. Carl Hubbell* 883
7. Bob Gibson* 883
8. Mike Mussina 878
9. John Hiller 877
10. Luis Tiant 876

I actually think Jack Morris would be an even less deserving electee than Jim Rice.  His similarity list would strenuously disagree with me.  Morris is actually one of the reasons I question my results for pitchers.  Most of the pitchers on his list are Hall of Famers and deservedly so.  Looking at my calculations, I think the major reason Morris looks so good is that he had 63 more wins in his career than the average pitcher who pitched for his teams would have.  I'm not accounting for run support, which we know was fairly high for Morris.  Morris only saved around 50 runs over the average pitcher versus over 150 for most of the Hall of Famers.  I think I'll need to look into tweaking the calculation some.

Lee Smith:

1. Billy Wagner 940
2. John Franco 868
3. Eddie Guardado 852
4. Trevor Hoffman 846
5. Jose Mesa 842
6. Mike Jackson 842
7. Jeff Reardon 834
8. Rick Aguilera 828
9. Todd Jones 826
10. Randy Myers 824

Now, I'm not one who believes no relievers should make the Hall.  I would, however, keep it limited to pitchers who demonstrate a lot more than just a raw save count.  Of the current HOF relievers, I think Wilhelm and Gossage deserve to be there.  I'm fairly certain Eck was a good pick, but was suprised how easily he made it.  Fingers and Sutter just aren't deserving (and whither Quiz?).  Smith falls into that last category.  Very good pitcher for a long time, but just didn't do enough to make it.

Tommy John:

1. Babe Adams 918
2. Waite Hoyt* 907
3. Kenny Rogers 905
4. Herb Pennock* 900
5. Jim Kaat 899
6. Bobby Matthews 898
7. David Wells 897
8. Kevin Brown 897
9. Paul Derringer 896
10. Schoolboy Rowe 895

Just like John, his similar players are solid, but not spectacular.  I don't think we should give John extra credit for the eponymous surgery, even though Candy Cummings is in almost solely for the curve ball, and Bruce Sutter got some votes because of the splitter.

Dale Murphy:

1. Cy Williams 921
2. Gil Hodges 918
3. Rocky Colavito 917
4. Andruw Jones 914
5. Jeremy Burnitz 908
6. Greg Vaughn 907
7. Rudy York 906
8. George Foster 905
9. Hank Sauer 896
10. Cliff Johnson 894

I always over-estimate how good Dale Murphy actually was.  I think it's because I came of baseball age in the mid 80s when Dale Murphy was considered by some to be the best player in the game.  And watching a lot of TBS surely didn't hurt.  It's amazing how quickly he fell off the cliff.  Watching the Andruw Jones saga makes me think of Dale - both former Braves center fielders who looked like sure fire Hall of Famers before crashing.  It's kind of sad (in a baseball way).

There are a handful of other players who have reportedly gotten votes, but they're not really serious candidates and this is already a very long post, so I'm not going to cover most of them.  I will handle one more player because I know Corky Simpson is interested.

Matt Williams:

1. Rocky Colavito 912
2. George Foster 906
3. Chuck Klein* 892
4. Hank Sauer 891
5. Ernie Banks* 890
6. Roy Sievers 888
7. Ron Cey 886
8. Jim Rice 884
9. Lee May 883
10. Ron Santo 871

There's not a lot to say here except that I think it's fairly clear that Matt Williams is a much more deserving Hall of Famer than Rickey Henderson.  Actually Williams does look better than I would have expected, but faded too quickly to really garner any support.

That wraps up my look at the 2009 Hall of Fame ballot. I'll be back later this week to look at Mark Teixiera, CC Sabathia and others to see if we can find anything interesting about their futures from their comparables.

 

0 recs  |  Comment 2 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Eck was a solid starter before he was a stellar reliever

Neither individual career was clearly HoF, but both from the same player makes it a lot easier to, er, believe (to quote another reliever).

“I actually think Jack Morris would be an even less deserving electee than Jim Rice.”

Now there we agree. (But I’ve maintained for a while that Fenway LFers are unfairly maligned—well, except when Manny was there.)

by klhoughton on Jan 12, 2009 2:04 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Nice reliever analysis

I’m particularly obsessed with seeing what makes a Hall of Fame reliever. I agree that among current HoFers, Wilhelm and Gossage are the ‘no question’ guys. Like you, I’ve been a bit surprised Eck had no problem, seeing how much trouble Gossage got.

And Quisenberry.

Every HOF junkie has a pet case. He’s mine. Nice to see him mentioned here. He’s a Hall of Famer.

by adarowski on Jan 13, 2009 9:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

We use numbers and stuff.
Community Guidelines
Why be a member?
Start posting on Beyond the Box Score »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

770insig_small
BtB's "Ball On A Budget" Fantasy League - Discuss Participants, Payrolls and Position Eligibility

Recent FanPosts

Ds9_small
good graphing program?
Small
Predicting HR/FB Rates
Leopold_butter_scotch_southpark_small
Troy Tulowitzki vs Ryan Braun
Small
Pitchers batted ball observations
Small
Eric Byrnes: A player worth a look?
Small
Valverde Is Charging Detroit Double
Mukuro_small
Another question: About power rankings
Small
Why You Shouldn't Trade for Arroyo
Jinaz-reds-avatar_small
Last Call for BtB Sabermetric Writing Award Nominations

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Can you spot the five guys NOT in the Hall of Fame? It's easy, I separated 'em for ya. :)

Here's the full post about guys elected to the Hall of Fame primarily for their defense. Guys like Brooks Robinson, Ozzie Smith, Bobby Wallace, John Ward, and Bid McPhee stand up as definite HOFers, with many others worthy of debate (and a couple aren't worth any debate at all).

I almost made it through the whole post without comparing some HOFers to our friends Bill Dahlen, Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich, Alan Trammell, and Ron Santo. Almost.
If you care about newspaper coverage of MLB, read this post
Visualizing the Difference Between Offensive and Defensive Value for Catchers
First B-Pro and now ESPN. Tommy, you're growing up so fast
THT - Advancing by ground
Negro League Museum Close to Folding
It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one...
Ranking Minor League Systems Using Victors Wang's Prospect Valuations
Pitch f/x on Ricky Nolasco Stretch vs. Windup again
Veron Wells the artist.  I never knew.

http://www.vwellsart.com/

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

BtB on Twitter

Main Feed: @BtBScore

Jeff: @jeffwzimmerman
Steve: @steve_sommer
Sky: @BtB_Sky
Dan: @dturkenk
Harry: @harrypav
Jinaz: @jinazreds
Jack: @jh_moore
Erik: @Erik_Manning
Tommy R: @trancel
Justin: @justinbopp

Subscribe to BtB via Email

Enter your email address:

Delivered by FeedBurner

BtB Goes Social


Managers

Wbc_029_small Jeff Sullivan

Editors

Rawlings_baseball_bigger_small Dan Turkenkopf

Limes_125_small Sky Kalkman

770insig_small Jeff Zimmerman (TucsonRoyal)

Aviles_small Justin Bopp

Authors

Roots_game_small R.J. Anderson

Jinaz-reds-avatar_small JinAZ

Face_small Harry Pavlidis

1753738656_110919ebe9_o_small vivaelpujols

Ozzie_small erik

Raysring1_small Tommy Rancel

Redcap_small SFiercex4

St_louis_cardinals_ce1141_003263_small stevesommer05

Paige_small Satchel Price