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Will Carroll has an Unfiltered blog post up discussing how the Rays-Twins trade this past off-season was a win-win deal, benefitting both teams.

"Both teams might end up in the playoffs, but the Rays appear to have gotten a slightly better deal. Garza became an ace-level starter with a 35.3 VORP while Bartlett was named team MVP with a 13.3 VORP. That doesn’t mean the Twins got shafted. Young (14.2 VORP) played a pivotal role, while Harris surprised many with his play at short (9.6 VORP.) Harris also benefits if you include defense, putting up a 4.3 WARP1 that outshines Bartlett’s 3.4, which might stun those that rave about Bartlett’s defense."

It's a decent analysis -- but those numbers are a load of crap, both wrong and misleading. Nobody was surprised by Harris' bat -- it's his glove that's awful, no matter what BPro's poor fielding metric says. And to ignore Young's awful glove while mentioning his offense is poor form.

Whereas FRAA (which isn't based on play-by-play data) says Harris is +1 at short whlie Bartlett is -6 runs, combined BIS and STATS zone ratings have Bartlett firmly ahead +1 to -11. The latter metric follows better methodology, matches most people's scouting reports, and is in line with past performances. That's a 19 runs difference between BPro's numbers and much more correct numbers (albeit still with large error bars).

Here's the better analysis of the trade, in terms of overall 2008 production through September 5th:

Garza: 35 runs
Bartlett: 10 runs
Young: 0 runs
Harris: -3 runs

Um, so the Rays got a stud pitcher and competent shortstop in exchange for two replacement-level players. How, then, was this trade anything more than a win-loss deal for the Rays and Twins respectively? How did the Twins NOT get shafted?

about 1 year ago Limes_125_tiny Sky Kalkman 11 comments 0 recs  | 

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Using VORP to evaluate a pitcher?

Really, Will Carroll? Really?

J.K.L.

by acblue on Sep 27, 2008 1:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

why are you anti-VORP for pitchers?

just curious — anything other than the fact that it’s ERA-based? (is it even ERA-based?)

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Sep 28, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's RA-based.

Pitching VORP is:

(RepRA – RA)/9 * IP

With different replacement level RAs for starters and relievers. Not absolutely horrible but there are a lot of better ways to do it.

by cwyers on Sep 29, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I had assumed Harris for Bartlett was a wash or close to one, but I’m flabbergasted that Will Carroll would call Delmon Young for Matt Garza anything close to even. Seeing that Bartlett for Harris wasn’t even a close trade is surprising.

Space.

It's a problem we face.

So we never go anywhere.

We just stay in one place.

by hazel on Sep 27, 2008 5:17 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Harris was brutal at SS and 2B

but he’s easily been the Twins best option at 3B (over Buscher) this year. Punto has been good at SS, fortunately more production than last year.

In order to fully evaluate the trade, one would have to consider the options each team had for each player. For example on the Twins side it’s Garza versus Blackburn or Perkins, Young versus Span (would probably have started the year in LF along side Gomez) and Bartlett versus Punto at SS.
For the Rays (I’m a bit less familiar, being a Twins fan), their replacement for Garza would have been ? Zobrist for Bartlett.

Bottom line, the Rays were likely helped greatly by the trade, but the Twins didn’t come across quite as bad, given their other options at LF and SP.

by Adam Peterson on Sep 28, 2008 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Garza would have replaced Livan, no?

And while the Twins certainly had a young pitcher to spare, it’s still a bad trade giving one up for what’s turned out to be nothing (at least in 2008).

Do you think Span would have started the year in the majors? His minor league track record was not impressive until this year.

The Rays would have found a different option than Zobrist or Brignac at short, maybe Jack Wilson or Cesar Izturis. Hammel or Niemann probably would have been the first rotation option instead of Garza (both started games early in the year when Kazmir was out.)

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Sep 28, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree it's still a bad trade

I guess it’s all about how you account for the Twins trades. Who did Livan replace? IMO, the Twins don’t trade for Livan if they kept either Johan or Garza, so I guess you’re right, more accurate to compare Garza to Livan (ouch!).

Yes, regardless of how Span’s minor league track record looked, it was down to him or Gomez in CF. I believe the Twins went with Gomez as much for upside and PR as much as anything, playing the centerpiece of the Johan Santana trade. All things being equal (no additional trades), it would have been Span, but it’s more likely the Twins complete some other trade or sign a FA in LF.

by Adam Peterson on Sep 28, 2008 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Will Carroll struggles whenever he ventures outside of injury analysis

"Some of the men didn't wait for the women and children to jump off the sinking ship that is our season." - 67MARQUEZ

by notsellingjeans on Sep 28, 2008 10:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I really didn't want to pick on Will, but I see it came across that way a little bit

Sorry, Will.

I more wanted to point out how BPro’s most popular stat doesn’t include fielding, and their overall stat uses an awful fielding metric (and dumb baseline), making them both next-to-worthless and preventing even their own writers from writing effective, quick analyses.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Sep 28, 2008 1:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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