All Those In Favor Of Carlos Delgado As NL MVP, Please Shut Up
I'm not going to get into a big NL MVP debate -- at least not yet. But I did want to point something out relating to Carlos Delgado's growing candidacy. Namely the fact that it's almost as bad of an idea as handing a Gold Glove to Derek Jeter.
Yes, Delgado has been on fire recently. But his first half was just awful -- there was even talk of cutting him. Overall, he's been very good, but nothing spectacular, and where are all the mainstream writers who like to harp on consistency? If you swap Delgado's first and second halves, the Mets would have built a five or six game lead by the All-Star break and would currently be in the midst of squandering the NL East title for the second year in a row. Any chance Delgado's an MVP candidate in that scenario? Didn't think so.
Delgado's season line is.266/.350/.518, hardly spectacular. In fact, he ranks 17th in NL WPA/LI:
| Rank | Name | WPA/LI |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Albert Pujols | 5.72 |
| 2 | Lance Berkman | 5.04 |
| 3 | Ryan Ludwick | 4.07 |
| 4 | Matt Holliday | 4.02 |
| 5 | Chipper Jones | 3.74 |
| 6 | David Wright | 3.73 |
| 7 | Hanley Ramirez | 3.41 |
| 8 | Chase Utley | 3.14 |
| 9 | Carlos Lee | 3.06 |
| 10 | Adam Dunn | 3.05 |
| 11 | Ryan Braun | 3.00 |
| 12 | Jason Bay | 2.84 |
| 13 | Pat Burrell | 2.61 |
| 14 | Carlos Beltran | 2.51 |
| 15 | Aramis Ramirez | 2.51 |
| 16 | Brad Hawpe | 2.42 |
| 17 | Carlos Delgado | 2.37 |
What's that, you think WPA is a better stat to use for the MVP award because clutch performance adds real wins? Ok, then Delgado falls to 22nd, because he's been, well, unclutch:
| Rank | Player | WPA |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | Lance Berkman | 6.83 |
| 2 | Albert Pujols | 5.86 |
| 3 | Matt Holliday | 5.05 |
| 4 | Carlos Lee | 4.84 |
| 5 | Hanley Ramirez | 4.32 |
| 6 | Jason Bay | 3.88 |
| 7 | Carlos Beltran | 3.76 |
| 8 | Pat Burrell | 3.67 |
| 9 | Nate McLouth | 3.62 |
| 10 | Chipper Jones | 3.18 |
| 11 | Aramis Ramirez | 3.02 |
| 12 | David Wright | 2.94 |
| 13 | Ryan Braun | 2.90 |
| 14 | Andre Ethier | 2.77 |
| 15 | Adam Dunn | 2.66 |
| 16 | Adrian Gonzalez | 2.59 |
| 17 | Brad Hawpe | 2.54 |
| 18 | Dan Uggla | 2.49 |
| 19 | Cody Ross | 2.47 |
| 20 | J.J. Hardy | 2.13 |
| 21 | Ryan Ludwick | 2.04 |
| 22 | Carlos Delgado | 1.89 |
I haven't even brought up defense, which is surely not a point in Delgado's favor. He's a first baseman, which are worth a full win less than than the average position over a full season. And Delgado's not really known for his glove.
Both David Wright and Carlos Beltran rank higher in WPA (Beltran is seventh) and WPA/LI (Wright is sixth) and both play more important defensive positions. Given Beltran's awesome glove and high WPA number, he's the real NL MVP candidate from the Mets.
My personal pick for MVP is Albert Pujols -- I could care less if a player is on a playoff team or not. Inspired by Baseball-Fever user STLCards2 I pulled split-half data for Delgado and Pujols using June27th as the first day of the second half. (Thanks, Day By Database.) Why June 27th? Because that's the date Pujols returned from the DL and Delgado drove in nine runs. Here's how Delgado's awesome second half compares to Pujols':
| Second Half | PA | AVG | OBP | SLG |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Delgado | 291 | .308 | .399 | .656 |
| Pujols | 287 | .362 | .449 | .671 |
Even at Delgado's best, he's no Pujols. And how about their first halves:
| First Half | PA | AVG | OBP | SLG |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Delgado | 314 | .229 | .306 | .396 |
| Pujols | 283 | .358 | .484 | .637 |
Yeah, they're just not even in the same ballpark offensively. And Pujols is probably two wins better with the glove, too.
So, anyone still on the Delgado bandwagon? Sure, he's had a great second half. But his awful first half was what made his second half so important. Many players, including some on teams competing for playoff spots, have done a lot more over the course of the season to help their teams win games. Let's keep the entire season in perspective and not overreact to the last two months.
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The Writers Don't Check the WPA...
You’re probably right about Pujols being the front runner for NL MVP. But before we crown him, a quick reminder:
2007 NL MVP Jimmy Rollins – 2.47 WPA/LI (15th) / 2.69 WPA (15th)
1999 AL MVP Ivan Rodriguez – 1.24 WPA/LI (34th) / 0.01 WPA (53rd)
1995 AL MVP Mo Vaughn – 2.13 WPA/LI (16th) / 0.90 WPA (36th)
Never underestimate the stupidity of baseball writers choosing the MVP. They’re as likely to choose a good story or a personal bias as much as a good ballplayer, and Delgado’s resurgence is one hell of a story this season.
He has a shot, unfair as it seems.
by MatthewA on
Sep 11, 2008 8:40 AM EDT
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Oh, I agree that the BBWAA can and will do some crazy stuff.
I’m just trying to throw a little logic in the discussion. I’m actually ok (well, I’ve just stopped fighting the fight, I guess) with requiring an MVP to come from a playoff team. But I don’t think it’s too much to ask that the MVP is actually one of the top 25 players in the league, or the best player on his team, or a member of the team for more than half a season (ahem, CC).
I don’t really write articles like this to predict who the BBWAA will pick as their MVP or to persuade them. I’m just hoping to get the point out to fans, so I don’t have to hear about Delgado being MVP at the bar.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 11, 2008 2:16 PM EDT
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Love the site
Found this place because the Hardball Times linked to this article.
I never understood why the MVP had to come from a playoffs team. Albert Pujols is less valuable because he plays on a crappier team and/or for plays in a tougher division? It’s just illogical.
The Pedroia bandwagon amuses me too because nobody was talking about Kinsler from MVP when he was having a better season before the injury. Though at least Pedroia is a better AL pick than Delgado is for the NL.
by VictorW on
Sep 11, 2008 2:54 PM EDT
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Welcome to the site -- looking forward to having you in the discussion.
I actually read a lot about Kinsler’s MVP candidacy about a month ago — he was in the Bradley/Hamilton trifecta. And, surprisingly, Pedroia actually HAS been a beast this year. Going by Justin’s stats, Sizemore is the clear #1, ARod is the clear #2 (but has been awful in the clutch), and Pedroia is #3, but in a pack with a bunch of other guys. For people who require the MVP be on a playoff contender, he’s not a bad choice.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 11, 2008 5:28 PM EDT
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I always felt that Hamilton overshadowed most of the support for Kinsler, thought it obviously depends on where you read. HBT loved Kinsler while ESPN was still talking about Hamilton’s RBI totals.
Yeah, in fairness to Pedroia, he’s really not that bad pick, but I still feel like he’s getting a lot more attention than Kinsler was. I agree that Sizemore should be the top MVP pick, but I prefer Mauer over Pedroia. Higher OPS+ and Eqa and a tougher position, but less games since he’s a catcher.
by VictorW on
Sep 11, 2008 5:47 PM EDT
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I'm with you about Mauer.
A Mauer vs. Morneau article would read very similar to this one, except that Morneau and Mauer aren’t quite as far apart as Delgado and Beltran.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 11, 2008 6:23 PM EDT
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Agreed.
Beltran and Wright probably are Delgado’s biggest drawbacks to winning the MVP award, as the Mets wouldn’t be where they are without all 3. I don’t know that his choice would be as egregious as Vaughn or Pudge, though.
I can’t imagine CC’s garnering much support for the MVP, although he should belong in the conversation for Cy Young.
by MatthewA on
Sep 11, 2008 4:12 PM EDT
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here's an argument for Delgado not really being critical to the Mets...
at least any more critical than most other non-stars on the team:
His WPA is 1.90. At 2 WAR per 700 PAs, he gets another 1.7 wins. From Justin’s stats, his position adjustment is -.8 wins and his fielding is -.1 wins (he’s been quite decent at first, evidently). Add it all up and you get 2.7 wins over replacement, which is barely over average. If the Mets, with their large payroll, could find a league-average first baseman, they’d be less than one game worse in the standings. Doesn’t really make Delgado seem “critical”, does it?
Let’s do Beltran (and I may have to do this for everyone as my real MVP article):
WPA: 3.8
WAR: 1.8
POS: .3
FIELD: 1.3
Overall he’s been 7.2 wins above replacement. That is critical.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 11, 2008 5:41 PM EDT
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I never understood why people are so unforgiving about Beltran
He’s good hitter and actually wins deserving Gold Gloves.
Doesn’t the Delgado bandwagon realize that he’s just giving back the wins he cost them in April, May, and June?
by VictorW on
Sep 11, 2008 5:51 PM EDT
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that's the point i love, and should have hammered home more
if Delgado had been even decent during the first half, they wouldn’t have needed him to be huge the second half. i like the way you put it:
Doesn’t the Delgado bandwagon realize that he’s just giving back the wins he cost them in April, May, and June?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 11, 2008 6:24 PM EDT
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But....but...but...
We don’t need your stinkin “logic,” or your lying “statistics.”
by Peter Bendix on
Sep 11, 2008 10:22 AM EDT
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but what about Pujols's words to Howard?
He got angry about Howard winning the MVP while playing on a non playoff team. But submitted his own greatness from his 85 win Cards. If I am remembering correctly.
by willkoky on
Sep 11, 2008 3:20 PM EDT
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so Albert Pujols should decide the criteria for the MVP?
by superk1ng on
Sep 11, 2008 4:25 PM EDT
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exactly
it is interesting to note that even pujols has his own mvp biases; but that does not mean he is correct, or that we as fans should penalize him for being wrong. the play-off situation was not the reason he deserved the award over howard, albert was simply better and yes, more “valuable”.
by mattybobo on
Sep 16, 2008 11:04 AM EDT
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the writers just need to be consistent
If the player’s team doesn’t need to make the playoffs, Albert should win it this year (and wright should have won it in ‘07). If the player’s team DOES need to make the playoffs, Albert should have won it in ‘06. Because the writers are inconsistent, he’s going to be robbed at least twice in 3 years (and he has a decent argument for being the ’07 MVP, as well).
Albert is much, much better than Howard, and had a better season in 2006 (9.57 WPA!!!) than Howard (8.10). Howard had a great season, but not the greatest in the league; he won the award because he hit a few more home runs than albert, and a bunch came in september. Albert deserved the award; he was better all year long, AND his team made the playoffs, which is what makes it so frustrating for cardinals fans (and for albert at the time, I’m sure). Even without adjusting for park factors, Albert was almost full 3 wins better with the bat, and probably 2 with the glove (+25 for albert vs -9 for howard by +/-) over howard in ‘06. Swap the players, and the cardinals don’t make the playoffs in 2006, and the phillies do, easily.
What I think is funny is that the BBWAA think they should be exempt from criticism for their choices. They make an absolutely ridiculous choice, and then make a villain out of the player who they robbed for questioning them? MVP ballots should not be secret. it’s a public award; we should know who the idiots being idiots are. Those people who make MVP’s out of good-but-not-great players like rollins and Howard should have their votes taken away in the future, or at least heavily discounted.
"All I am saying is give Freese a chance!" -- nmstar
by SleepyCA on
Sep 13, 2008 3:10 PM EDT
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I agree, and you're probably preaching to the choir around here.
I’ve personally decided not to recognize the BBWAA’s right to decide the MVP and just treat it as their MVP. Baseball Prospectus lets internet voters pick their MVP. And you and I can pick our MVPs. What really drives me crazy is when intelligent fans choose their own MVP based on the BBWAA’s criteria, which they recognize as absurd and inconsistent.
Wright was a good choice last year, but I might have leaned towards Pujols again.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 13, 2008 5:54 PM EDT
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Hey Sky, it’s Erik Bedard from BBF. We agree that Pujols clearly deserves the MVP, and Delgado doesn’t even belong in the discussion. However, as I said over there, I take issue with the statement that games in April and September have the same impact (not by you, by others in the comment section). They count the same in the standings, but a loss in April decreases the probability of a playoff berth far less than a loss in September. To use an extreme example, on the last day of the season, two teams are tied for first place in the standings, and playing each other. Is it more crucial that they win that game than it was on their Opening Day game? Obviously, yes. I really don’t give much additional weight to players who played better later in the season, and certainly not to those who played on winning teams, but I feel it is a commonly held misconception that the games mean the same in April as in September (for teams in the playoff chase, that is).
by eb45 on
Sep 14, 2008 6:41 PM EDT
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not a refutation, just a clarification
You can certainly address the importance of games along the same lines that WPA addresses the importance of plate appearances — how much does your performance affect your team’s chances of making the playoffs (or of winning the game for WPA). Call it Playoff Probability Added. The “problem” with this approach is that you could award the MVP for a single at-bat — the game-winning hit in a runoff game like the Padres and Rockies played last year, for example. If you’re ok with a one at-bat MVP, fine. But I doubt you are, and I don’t think we really want to go that route.
One BIG problem with with a Playoff Probability Added approach (and with WPA, actually) is that a player can create the situation that makes him look like a hero by playing poorly early in the season. Take Delgado this year — his performance is important right now, but it wouldn’t have been important had he been competent for the first few months. If the Mets were eight games up instead of three and he had a huge second half, we wouldn’t care (sort of like Tex in Anaheim). Doesn’t it seem illogical that Delgado could have been better overall, but less deserving of the MVP? Like someone else said, all Delgado is doing is filling in the hole that he himself dug earlier in the year.
Also, if you count September games as more important, you’re ignoring the contributions of players earlier in the year that put you in the position to compete. All of the little things that Rockies players did in April were hugely important — if one of them didn’t happen, the 20-game win streak would have left the Rockies one game out of the playoffs. I don’t agree that we should take what’s already happened as a given. To say that today’s game is the most important game of the season misses the point.
Thanks for joining the blog and jumping right in on the discussion.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on
Sep 14, 2008 8:40 PM EDT
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games in april and may
are just as important as games in september, just it’s impossible to know then how important they will be. each game in a year has exactly equal importance, but until the season progresses it is impossible to know how much margin for error you have.
by soccerfreak on
Sep 16, 2008 2:41 PM EDT
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This is wrong
Statistically, it looks like it is worth less to lose a game in April because there are so many games left that your chances are not affected as much in the calculations. However, a loss is indeed a loss, and a loss on day 1 is the same as a loss in game 162. Unless you think that teams can somehow decide they will win more games later in the year to make up for all those losses in April. If that were the case, they could just win them all! In this case, statistics do lie if you take them too literally. Yes, with 2 games left, down 1 game in the standings, a loss statistically is a killer. But in truth, the loss was no less important than the ones in April.
by rthorat on
Sep 25, 2008 9:10 AM EDT
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