BtB Community Hall of Fame Vote
by Sky Kalkman on Dec 3, 2008 5:00 PM EST
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PrintThis is pretty straight forward: If you had a vote, who would you put in the Hall of Fame? Feel free to post your ballot in the comments with or without explanation.
Also check out this fanpost, where we're experimenting with an organized system of linking to quality articles for and against specific candidates getting into the Hall.
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There must be some mistake here.
BtB doesn’t think ANYONE should be in the Hall of Fame?
Rickey Henderson is the leader, which is good. He’s got 27%, which is insane.
You can only vote for one player.
I voted for Tommy John because he’s the most FAMOUS out of those players, IMO.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
You can vote for multiple
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
Sorry.
I was wrong. Me = stupid. Apology accepted by all?
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Wrong.
You can vote for as many players as you’d like.
The 27% represents 27% of the total votes cast, not the percentage of ballots a player appears on. Unfortunately, polldaddy won’t tell me how many ballots were cast, so we really should only care about the relative totals. Rickey SHOULD be a no-brainer, so his vote tally can probably be taken as 90 to 95% of the total ballots.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
I agree
and although you can vote for as many as you want, I don’t really see anyone who is HOF worthy**besides Rickey. At least not first ballot worthy, and this is my first ballot.
**I have ridiculously high standards
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
How small a Hall do you envision?
I’m honestly curious.
by Dan Turkenkopf on Dec 3, 2008 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
286 now?
I bet I could trim at least 50 off that list. I also think 15 years on the ballot is crazy. If you are a HOFer, it should not take you 15 tries. I would probably trim it down to 3-5.
I should do a fanpost on that somewhere.
* sarcasm might be involved in this comment
You can only vote for one player.
This is not true.
I voted for Tommy John because he’s the most FAMOUS out of those players, IMO.
I don’t think this is true, either.
Opinion, not fact.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Opinions can't be considered true or false.
That’s my opinion. The surgery nickname would help him in my system.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
I wish you were kidding
Too close to tell. Are you… Not serious?
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 3, 2008 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
I'm serious.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Opinions can, in fact, be true or false.
If I say it’s my opinion that the world is flat, it’s false.
There is a correct answer as to who is more famous, Tommy John or Rickey Henderson. You and I may not be able to prove who it is, but there is a correct answer.
And I’ll bet you the correct answer is not Tommy John and you’d have to give me a good argument for how more people could know who Tommy John is (not the surgery, the player) than know who Rickey Henderson is.
See below.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
My arguement would be that it should be based on how memorable the player was.
Wait ten years, then do a month long poll of fans at ballparks, online, etc. Any player that more than 40% of fans say should be in, gets in. Twenty years after they are inducted, include their names on the ballot again. If more than 25% of fans still say yes, then they stay forever. If not, then they are up for vote again for the next five years. Oh, and limit fans to one vote per IP address online, per ticket at the ballpark, etc. No stuffing the ballot.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Also, the second vote thing would allow accused cheaters to be forgiven or punished.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
So you think more people know who Tommy John was. .
. . . than Rickey Henderson?
Like, really? You actually believe this? This is a real belief that you hold?
Not who he was...
but what he’s famous for. In a world where WebMD is one of the most visited web sites, having a surgery nicknamed for you, esp. one that is performed on dozens of celebrity athletes every year, will create a legacy all its own.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
My mom actively hates baseball and knows who Rickey Henderson is.
My best friend hasn’t paid attention to sports since he was 4, and that was the Packers. He knows who Rickey Henderson is. My girlfriend, sister, various co-workers, late Grandmother-they all know Rickey. None of them know who Tommy John is, and I’d be surprised if they’d heard of the surgery. There’s no way on earth Tommy John is more famous than Rickey.
by Aaron Campeau on Dec 5, 2008 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
But, really, what’s the point again?
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 6, 2008 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
I hate using stats for deciding things other than what they should be used for.
Trades, signings, prospects, and direct player comparison. Not for awards.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
I don't get what you mean
Stats can be used for direct player comparison, but not for awards? You could use a stat to point at how better, I don’t know, Pujols is than Corey Patterson but you can not use those stats to rank Pujols higher in an award?
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 6, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
Awards are not supposed to be rankings in stats.
Hence the interest in them. If it was based purely on stats, we wouldn’t have anticipated DP’s MVP nearly as much.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
All right, fine.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
How I determine whether or not I think a player should be in the HOF.
Is their name part of the everyday language of baseball fans?
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
No. I think the border is probably around Roger Bresnahan.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Accidentally forgot to vote for Alan Trammell
And now wondering if it was an “accident.”
Only a few votes in so far, philkid3, and don’t have faith in that percentage: probably just “of the total,” which means he should only get about 16.6-25% of the votes.
The question is more “who left him off”?
I spent more time thinking about whether to vote or not in David Cone than I wish I had
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
Raines and Henderson kthx
Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls, Riggans Your Thingans
09: This one is for all the rings.
Really?
McGwire? Even with the PEDs issue?
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Again, I think that in the court of public opinion, he's assumed to have used.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Opinions are contestable
Otherwise, what’s the point of any conversation? Also, I very much agree that McGwire should be on the HoF.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 4, 2008 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
When an opinion is based upon intangible things, it's kinda hard to argue either way.
I wouldn’t feel right voting him in, that’s all.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Ok, it's up to you to vote or not for him
But we can disagree, that’s what I mean.
Mother---- him and John Wayne!
by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 5, 2008 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
Other players in the hall have cheated.
Plus pitchers were using PEDs too. Far be it from me to attempt and judge who was and was not using.
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 4, 2008 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
This. I had McGwire on mine also.
Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls, Riggans Your Thingans
09: This one is for all the rings.
Alright, if you feel okay with allowing it.
I just don’t feel right knowing that players will get in next to other people who had to work much harder for their achievements.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Ty Cobb never had to play against black players.
Baseball players didn’t lift weights or do any sort of training in general until at least the 1970s. The “they didn’t work as hard for it” argument just doesn’t hold a lot of water with me.
by Aaron Campeau on Dec 4, 2008 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
He's still famous though.
That’s like saying that an action film actor isn’t famous because he never did a romance movie.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
This has absolutely nothing to do with anything being discussed.
by Aaron Campeau on Dec 5, 2008 1:43 AM EST up reply actions
Analogy:
Cobb : action film actor :: never played against black players : never did a romance movie
This, without the fact that it wasn’t Cobb’s choice, is the comparison I was making.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
So, every veteran pitcher who's gotten an extra few strike calls because of their tenure are disqualified too, right?
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 4, 2008 6:27 PM EST up reply actions
No.
You’re assuming. I just have a moral standard against people who harm their own bodies for the sake of money or fame.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
What did I assume?
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
That everyone, A) harmed their bodies, B) did it for money or fame.
A) Isn’t true of all substances or dosages, and B) is just speculative.
You could say Tommy John put his body to harm for money/fame, no?
by R.J. Anderson on Dec 6, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm...
A) It’s illegal to use without a doctor’s prescription and supervision for a reason
B) What other reason is there?
I’m not sure how you could say that he purposely harmed himself for money or fame. I doubt he adjusted his mechanics so that his elbow would get shredded so that he could have a surgery performed on him.
Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/
Aargh.
Didn’t notice Rickey when I voted. Kinda hard when there’s like 25 names.
Raines and Rickey -I know Rice and Trammel and Blyleven all have good reasons, but to me they are JUST a bit below the HOF mark
My ballots
No-brainers:
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire (not thought to PEDs, though. I just don’t know how to handle that, so for now, I don’t)
Bert Blyleven
Yes, but I’m not 100% sure:
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
No, but I might be convinced:
Andre Dawson
No, but the discussion isn’t totally silly:
Rice
Morris
John
Haven’t really looked at candidacies, but they just don’t seem like it based on what I remember (which, really, is an awful reason):
Mattingly
Williams
Baines
Cone
Murphy
Nope:
Everyone else
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
My ballots
Sure-fire:
Blyleven
Henderson
Raines
McGwire
and because I’m a bit of a homer and I think they’re borderline:
Baines
John
sit*
Veteran's Committee Ballot
Dick Allen
Gil Hodges
Jim Kaat
Tony Oliva
Al Oliver
Vada Pinson
Ron Santo
Luis Tiant
Joe Torre
Maury Wills
I’ll have to do my research for most of these, but I like Santo, and no I’m not a Cubs fan. Joe Torre is pretty interesting. Did he catch enough games to go in the Hall as a player?
Allen and Santo are two of the most glaring omissions in Cooperstown.
I would also probably put Torre in.
After that, I haven’t put a whole lot of thought in to most of them. I’ve heard arguments for and against them all and have never made up my mind. The closest to getting in on my list after Torre would probably be Kaat.
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