BtB Community Hall of Fame Vote

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 3, 2008 5:00 PM EST Comment 69 comments

This is pretty straight forward: If you had a vote, who would you put in the Hall of Fame? Feel free to post your ballot in the comments with or without explanation.

Also check out this fanpost, where we're experimenting with an organized system of linking to quality articles for and against specific candidates getting into the Hall.

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There must be some mistake here.

BtB doesn’t think ANYONE should be in the Hall of Fame?

Rickey Henderson is the leader, which is good. He’s got 27%, which is insane.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 3, 2008 5:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

You can only vote for one player.

I voted for Tommy John because he’s the most FAMOUS out of those players, IMO.

Clutch: A measurement of how much better or worse a player does in high leverage situations than he would have done in a context neutral environment. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/glossary/

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 3, 2008 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You can vote for multiple

Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.

by P Brady on Dec 3, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry.

I was wrong. Me = stupid. Apology accepted by all?

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 3, 2008 6:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wrong.

You can vote for as many players as you’d like.

The 27% represents 27% of the total votes cast, not the percentage of ballots a player appears on. Unfortunately, polldaddy won’t tell me how many ballots were cast, so we really should only care about the relative totals. Rickey SHOULD be a no-brainer, so his vote tally can probably be taken as 90 to 95% of the total ballots.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 3, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh.

That’s really, really weird.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 3, 2008 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Henderson should be unanimous.

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 3, 2008 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

and although you can vote for as many as you want, I don’t really see anyone who is HOF worthy**besides Rickey. At least not first ballot worthy, and this is my first ballot.

**I have ridiculously high standards

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 3, 2008 6:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How small a Hall do you envision?

I’m honestly curious.

by Dan Turkenkopf on Dec 3, 2008 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

286 now?

I bet I could trim at least 50 off that list. I also think 15 years on the ballot is crazy. If you are a HOFer, it should not take you 15 tries. I would probably trim it down to 3-5.

I should do a fanpost on that somewhere.

* sarcasm might be involved in this comment

by mattyfrommo on Dec 3, 2008 8:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You can only vote for one player.

This is not true.

I voted for Tommy John because he’s the most FAMOUS out of those players, IMO.

I don’t think this is true, either.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 3, 2008 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Opinion, not fact.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 3, 2008 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 3, 2008 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Opinions can't be considered true or false.

That’s my opinion. The surgery nickname would help him in my system.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 3, 2008 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I wish you were kidding

Too close to tell. Are you… Not serious?

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 3, 2008 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm serious.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 4, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Opinions can, in fact, be true or false.

If I say it’s my opinion that the world is flat, it’s false.

There is a correct answer as to who is more famous, Tommy John or Rickey Henderson. You and I may not be able to prove who it is, but there is a correct answer.

And I’ll bet you the correct answer is not Tommy John and you’d have to give me a good argument for how more people could know who Tommy John is (not the surgery, the player) than know who Rickey Henderson is.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 4, 2008 12:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

See below.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 4, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You didn't really answer anything below.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 4, 2008 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My arguement would be that it should be based on how memorable the player was.

Wait ten years, then do a month long poll of fans at ballparks, online, etc. Any player that more than 40% of fans say should be in, gets in. Twenty years after they are inducted, include their names on the ballot again. If more than 25% of fans still say yes, then they stay forever. If not, then they are up for vote again for the next five years. Oh, and limit fans to one vote per IP address online, per ticket at the ballpark, etc. No stuffing the ballot.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 4, 2008 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Also, the second vote thing would allow accused cheaters to be forgiven or punished.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 4, 2008 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So you think more people know who Tommy John was. .

. . . than Rickey Henderson?

Like, really? You actually believe this? This is a real belief that you hold?

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 4, 2008 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not who he was...

but what he’s famous for. In a world where WebMD is one of the most visited web sites, having a surgery nicknamed for you, esp. one that is performed on dozens of celebrity athletes every year, will create a legacy all its own.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 5, 2008 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My mom actively hates baseball and knows who Rickey Henderson is.

My best friend hasn’t paid attention to sports since he was 4, and that was the Packers. He knows who Rickey Henderson is. My girlfriend, sister, various co-workers, late Grandmother-they all know Rickey. None of them know who Tommy John is, and I’d be surprised if they’d heard of the surgery. There’s no way on earth Tommy John is more famous than Rickey.

by acblue on Dec 5, 2008 10:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

But, really, what’s the point again?

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 6, 2008 9:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I hate using stats for deciding things other than what they should be used for.

Trades, signings, prospects, and direct player comparison. Not for awards.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 6, 2008 8:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't get what you mean

Stats can be used for direct player comparison, but not for awards? You could use a stat to point at how better, I don’t know, Pujols is than Corey Patterson but you can not use those stats to rank Pujols higher in an award?

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 6, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Awards are not supposed to be rankings in stats.

Hence the interest in them. If it was based purely on stats, we wouldn’t have anticipated DP’s MVP nearly as much.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 8, 2008 9:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

All right, fine.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 6, 2008 8:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Also. . .

“system?”

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 4, 2008 12:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How I determine whether or not I think a player should be in the HOF.

Is their name part of the everyday language of baseball fans?

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 4, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Accidentally forgot to vote for Alan Trammell

And now wondering if it was an “accident.”

Only a few votes in so far, philkid3, and don’t have faith in that percentage: probably just “of the total,” which means he should only get about 16.6-25% of the votes.

The question is more “who left him off”?

by klhoughton on Dec 3, 2008 5:43 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I spent more time thinking about whether to vote or not in David Cone than I wish I had

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 3, 2008 11:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Raines and Henderson kthx

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls, Riggans Your Thingans
09: This one is for all the rings.

by SRQman on Dec 4, 2008 2:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Raines, McGwire, Henderson, Blyleven, Trammel

Khalilbot

by JI on Dec 4, 2008 3:06 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

This was mine as well.

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 4, 2008 10:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

McGwire? Even with the PEDs issue?

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 4, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why not?

Especially when he has never been proven to have used.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 4, 2008 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Again, I think that in the court of public opinion, he's assumed to have used.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 4, 2008 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So?

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 4, 2008 8:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Opinions are contestable

Otherwise, what’s the point of any conversation? Also, I very much agree that McGwire should be on the HoF.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 4, 2008 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

When an opinion is based upon intangible things, it's kinda hard to argue either way.

I wouldn’t feel right voting him in, that’s all.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 5, 2008 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok, it's up to you to vote or not for him

But we can disagree, that’s what I mean.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Dec 5, 2008 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Other players in the hall have cheated.

Plus pitchers were using PEDs too. Far be it from me to attempt and judge who was and was not using.

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 4, 2008 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This. I had McGwire on mine also.

Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls, Riggans Your Thingans
09: This one is for all the rings.

by SRQman on Dec 4, 2008 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Alright, if you feel okay with allowing it.

I just don’t feel right knowing that players will get in next to other people who had to work much harder for their achievements.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 4, 2008 5:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ty Cobb never had to play against black players.

Baseball players didn’t lift weights or do any sort of training in general until at least the 1970s. The “they didn’t work as hard for it” argument just doesn’t hold a lot of water with me.

by acblue on Dec 4, 2008 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He's still famous though.

That’s like saying that an action film actor isn’t famous because he never did a romance movie.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 4, 2008 8:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything being discussed.

by acblue on Dec 5, 2008 1:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Analogy:

Cobb : action film actor :: never played against black players : never did a romance movie

This, without the fact that it wasn’t Cobb’s choice, is the comparison I was making.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 5, 2008 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So, every veteran pitcher who's gotten an extra few strike calls because of their tenure are disqualified too, right?

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 4, 2008 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No.

You’re assuming. I just have a moral standard against people who harm their own bodies for the sake of money or fame.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 4, 2008 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You're also assuming.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 4, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What did I assume?

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 5, 2008 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That everyone, A) harmed their bodies, B) did it for money or fame.

A) Isn’t true of all substances or dosages, and B) is just speculative.

You could say Tommy John put his body to harm for money/fame, no?

by R.J. Anderson on Dec 6, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmm...

A) It’s illegal to use without a doctor’s prescription and supervision for a reason
B) What other reason is there?

I’m not sure how you could say that he purposely harmed himself for money or fame. I doubt he adjusted his mechanics so that his elbow would get shredded so that he could have a surgery performed on him.

by bs.uf15bosox9bears23 on Dec 6, 2008 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Aargh.

Didn’t notice Rickey when I voted. Kinda hard when there’s like 25 names.

by Brendan Scolari on Dec 4, 2008 4:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Raines and Rickey -I know Rice and Trammel and Blyleven all have good reasons, but to me they are JUST a bit below the HOF mark

by adenzeno on Dec 4, 2008 7:11 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Blyleven

3701 K’s, 2.8 K to walk ratio, 4970 innings pitched. Among all time leaders: #14 in innings pitched and #5 in strikeouts. Just doesn’t have enough W-W-Wins and too many loses I guess.

by VictorW on Dec 4, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My ballots

No-brainers:
Rickey Henderson
Mark McGwire (not thought to PEDs, though. I just don’t know how to handle that, so for now, I don’t)
Bert Blyleven

Yes, but I’m not 100% sure:
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

No, but I might be convinced:
Andre Dawson

No, but the discussion isn’t totally silly:
Rice
Morris
John

Haven’t really looked at candidacies, but they just don’t seem like it based on what I remember (which, really, is an awful reason):
Mattingly
Williams
Baines
Cone
Murphy

Nope:
Everyone else

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Dec 4, 2008 9:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Murphy

is pretty borderline, but the South loves him. He did win 5 GG’s in CF, but I have no idea if that actually means he was actually good defensively

by VictorW on Dec 4, 2008 10:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My ballots

Sure-fire:
Blyleven
Henderson
Raines
McGwire

and because I’m a bit of a homer and I think they’re borderline:
Baines
John

sit*

by U-God on Dec 4, 2008 10:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Veteran's Committee Ballot

Dick Allen
Gil Hodges
Jim Kaat
Tony Oliva
Al Oliver
Vada Pinson
Ron Santo
Luis Tiant
Joe Torre
Maury Wills

I’ll have to do my research for most of these, but I like Santo, and no I’m not a Cubs fan. Joe Torre is pretty interesting. Did he catch enough games to go in the Hall as a player?

by VictorW on Dec 4, 2008 10:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Allen and Santo are two of the most glaring omissions in Cooperstown.

I would also probably put Torre in.

After that, I haven’t put a whole lot of thought in to most of them. I’ve heard arguments for and against them all and have never made up my mind. The closest to getting in on my list after Torre would probably be Kaat.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 4, 2008 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs