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The Rays Should Trade Scott Kazmir

To be clear, I have nothing against Scott Kazmir.  He's put up some excellent seasons and has the potential to be a Cy Young winner.  But given the way Tampa Bay's organization is aligned, trading him probably makes the team better.  Getting rid of him isn't the goal -- it's what he'll return that is the reward.  Let's start from the beginning...

Tampa Bay's Strengths and Weaknesses

Everybody knows that Tampa Bay's strength is starting pitching.  They had one of the best rotations in baseball in 2008 and will be adding post-season hero and all-world prospect David Price in 2009.  Wade Davis, Jeff Niemann, Mitch Talbot, and Jeremy Hellickson are all waiting in the wings, ready to play on the big stage within the next year or two.

What the Rays don't have is a stud right fielder or a large payroll.  If you believe in trading from a strength to fill a weakness (and why wouldn't you?), the Rays should be looking to trade a starter making significant money for an outfielder yet to hit arbitration.

Of the projected 2009 starters, Matt Garza, David Price, and Andy Sonnanstine will make peanuts, James Shields will earn less than $5MM per season through 2012, and Scott Kazmir will average about $9MM for the next three seasons. Assuming similar production, Kazmir is the guy to trade.

Kazmir's Value

But what can an interested team expect from Kazmir going forward?  While he did post a 3.49 ERA in 2008, his peripherals showed he actually had the worst year of his career, as represented by a 4.71 tRA.  An ERA-centric (read: dumb) organization will jump all over him.  A smart organization will see 2008's struggles, but will realize previous seasons count, too, and his previous three tRA's going backwards were 3.46, 3.53, and 4.32.  If we average the past three seasons' tRA*s (which is already regressed) weighted 5/3/2 we get a 2009 projected ERA of 3.94.  Given that AJ Burnett, Derek Lowe, and Ben Sheets will demand $15MM to $20MM per season, similar production from a much younger pitcher earning $9MM per season (plus option years) is a huge bargain.

Finding a Trade Partner

Now the Rays need a trade partner.  Team needs and expectations never line up perfectly, but I think all of these ideas are reasonable starting points:

  • Dodgers - They have a logjam in the outfield, leaving Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier as tradeable pieces.  I prefer Ethier, who has OBP skills in addition to right-handed power.
  • Cardinals - It's well known that Ryan Ludwick's being shopped.  Yes, he's arbitration eligible (i.e. not free anymore), but the Cardinals could sweeten the pot.  And how about Colby Rasmus as an option?
  • Rangers - I have to mention the possible return of Josh Hamilton to Tampa Bay, right?  According to Cot's he's under team control for four more years, and with the glut of outfielders in Texas (Byrd, Cruz, Boggs, Murphy), they can certainly give one up for a pitcher, right?
  • Brewers - Is Ryan Braun completely untouchable?  With his long-term contract, he's one of the most valuable commodities in all of baseball.  It would probably take more than Kazmir to nab him, but the Brewers need pitching as much as anyone.

Spending The Savings

The other benefit of unloading Kazmir's salary is that it frees up payroll space.  Down the road that will allow the Rays to keep more of their home-grown players, but short-term it could mean signing someone like Milton Bradley or Jason Giambi to DH or Brian Fuentes to completely prevent opponents from scoring in the late innings. Both those options would cost $8-$10MM a year, which not coincidentally equals Kazmir's future salary.

Putting It All Together

I'm probably being optimistic as to how much this trade would help the Rays, but the following summary sounds pretty good, all at no increase to the payroll:

Losses: Kazmir from the rotation (4 WAR), Gross/platoon-mate from right field (2 WAR), Hinske from DH (0 WAR)

Gains: Davis or Jackson in the rotation (1-4 WAR), Ethier or Ludwick in right field (4 WAR), Bradley or Giambi at DH (2 WAR)

Depending how quickly the Rays can upgrade from Jackson to Davis, that's a net gain of 1 to 4 wins per season.

What do you think?  Who else has a young outfielder to spare and would jump at the chance to land one of the best young lefty starters in the game?

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I think it would be more likely that Niemann/Talbot would take the remaining rotation spot.

Otherwise, interesting. I wouldn’t do Kazmir/Ethier unless the Rays also got something else.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 20, 2008 9:08 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Indians

Kazmir for Matt La Porta and Scott Lewis (LHRP)!

We then “just” need a stopgap RF/DH till La Porta takes over and get a LH relief pitcher worth considering as our loogy for ’09.

by BurGi on Nov 20, 2008 9:26 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's actually not a bad idea.

And I say that as an Indians AND Rays fan. Lewis, however, wouldn’t be a particularly good LOOGY.

by Peter Bendix on Nov 20, 2008 10:40 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By the way: Does anybody know whether Akinori Otsuka is going to be fit for ’09! He would be perfect in order to replace the hopefully retiring Percival!

by BurGi on Nov 20, 2008 9:33 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Trading Kaz

First off isn’t Ethier a lefty hitter?
I would rather trade for others if we would do a deal similar to this
What about Kaz to the Astros for Hunter Pence and Valvarde the closer
or Kaz to the Indians for Gutierrez and Ryan Garko
or Kaz to the Royals for Teahan and Butler and Mahay (we would have to throw
someone else in but to me we match up best right now with the Royals)

SC raysfan

by SC raysfan on Nov 20, 2008 9:43 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

- Good idea with the Royals! I just don’t like it that Gabe Gross and Rocco would be nearly unnecessary than (because Teahen and De Jesus are both better against Righties and Butler would be the everyday DH)
- The Brewers won’t trade Braun!
- Ethier is LH and is better against RHP —> suits not perfectly!
- I don’t want to pay so much money on a relief pitcher as we would have to do on Valverde
- Gutierrez and Garko are not enough for Kaz

by BurGi on Nov 20, 2008 10:11 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And a small island in the Pacific

There is no way Braun is getting traded anytime soon.

For that matter, the Hamilton seems pretty untouchable now. Why don’t the Rays go after Cruz? Not for Kaz, of course, but Cruz seems ideal for the Rays now.

by Sliderule on Nov 20, 2008 1:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wayne gretzky

got traded at the height of his career. I have to think ANYONE, including braun, is available.

by tuna411 on Nov 20, 2008 2:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree. Everyone should be available if the return is worth it.

Trading away Albert Pujols would hurt. But if the return is Longoria, Lincecum, and Ryan Braun, of course you do it.

Let’s look at Braun’s value. He’ll make about $42MM over the next six years, or about $7MM per year. In 2007, he was worth 46 offensive RAR and in 2008 he was worth 43. Let’s pretend he’ll maintain that for the next six years. Defensively, he appears to be an above-average left fielder. Let’s pretend we’re projecting him at +7.5 runs, exactly canceling out his position penalty. In other words, he’s a 4.5 WAR player overall. At today’s free agent rate ($4.8MM per win) that costs $22MM per year, or $15MM more than he’s being paid. Over the life of the contract, the net savings to the Brewers would be $90MM.

Now you compare that with Kazmir (or anyone else). I’ll do Kazmir. Maybe someone else can project other possible trade targets like Ethier or Wade Davis. Kazmir will make $39MM over the next four years if his option is picked up. With a 3.94 ERA and 167 IP (which are sufficiently conservative), he’s a 3.5 WAR pitcher, worth $17.5MM per season, or $70MM total. That’s a savings of $31MM.

So evidently Kazmir gets the Rays 1/3 of the way to Braun. I’m guessing David Price would MORE than make up that difference and Wade Davis would probably do it. And then there are specifics to consider, like the Brewers have outfield prospects galore and no pitching.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 20, 2008 3:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wasn't suggesting

that Braun wouldn’t be available for some crazy offer – just that the offer would in fact have to be literally crazy for it to get Braun away from that team, city, franchise, fan base. Unless there was some stupidly un-equal offer coming back, it would be organizational suicide to trade such a young cost-controlled stud. I think this applies to many of the young studs signed to long contracts out there, too. They could be available, but it really just isn’t going to happen.

by Sliderule on Nov 20, 2008 4:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, the whole "franchise player" thing is worth paying attention to.

Trades need to target under-appreciated players, which can be caused by things like “being good at defense” (Randy Winn), “too young to be a fan favorite” (Andre Ethier), and “playing second fiddle to the real fan favorite” (Ludwick)

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 20, 2008 5:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Nov 20, 2008 2:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I somehow meant 'a lot'

Can’t explain how my fingers typed ‘lol’. Just can’t. It’s a rainy day around here, people.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Nov 20, 2008 2:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Rockies could be a good fit for a Rays' trade partner

And the Rox have a solid buy-low candidate in Triple-A to get it done, too.

Victor Zambrano, anyone?

by MatthewA on Nov 20, 2008 11:00 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey, uhhh

We’ll take him back up here in New York

by JoshNY on Nov 20, 2008 11:14 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree

He’s coming off of one of the worst seasons in recent memory, and he was playing hurt most of the year. They just gave him a 3 year deal, if you’re gonna trade him, get one or two more years out of him, have him pitch to his abilities (which are outstanding when he can throw a slider) and the shop him when his stock is high.

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Nov 20, 2008 2:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That was my point on a previous thread

Kazmir is likely going to have a good season, Rays don’t need to trade him, his return likely wouldn’t match his own production and he’s signed for 3 more years. Trading him doesn’t make any sense, unless someone is offering Braun or Hamilton which is something I just can’t see happening.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Nov 20, 2008 2:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Let me repeat what I said to this before.
  • Of COURSE the Rays don’t NEED to trade him. Nobody’s saying that.
  • If YOU think Kazmir is going to have a good season, then why don’t other teams think that? Of course they do, and would love to have him on the team.
  • More than 2008 numbers matter, as you’re aware, since you’re expecting an increase in performance over 2008.
  • His ERA was still very good, meaning his 2008 might be overrated by some teams.
  • WHY (this is the big question so many comments seem not to answer) wouldn’t the return for Kazmir match his production?

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 20, 2008 3:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Then I'll repeat the same thing I've said before

→ Rays don’t need to trade him.
→ His return won’t match his production.
→ He’s coming from a down season, and teams usually don’t trade pitchers after a down season. Why, you ask? Because other teams will try to buy low.
→ I expect an increase, other teams see only the decline. You really, REALLY think someone is gonna phone Friedman and say “Hey, I wanna ask you about that boy Kazmir. I know he had a pretty bad season, is giving up lots of flyballs, walks are up and so on. But, heck, screw that noise, I wanna take that risk because I think he’s sexy. Give ya Jay Bruce, deal?”
→ He was bad in the post-season. If other teams see his ERA, they’ll see this.
→ BECAUSE he’s coming from a down season, and GMs will try to steal him from the Rays, while buying low to avoid any risks that he does not rebound.

Look at the packages Peavy is getting in trade talks, and Jake had yet another dominant season. In a gigantic park in a weak division, sure, but hey, what Kazmir had?

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Nov 20, 2008 7:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"BECAUSE he’s coming from a down season, and GMs will try to steal him from the Rays, while buying low to avoid any risks that he does not rebound.

I definitely see this.

Sky, I know you make a point about GMs seeing Kazmir rebounding, but they aren’t likely to pay the Rays with that in mind. Or attempt to pay the Rays. Instead they’ll use that as a weakness and attempt to have a lower price.

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 20, 2008 9:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What about Baltimore?

Nick Markakis, I know hes a lefty but hes young, talented, and definatly has a good bat. Not to mention his defense is really good and you could more than likely get a little more

by p00lshark on Nov 20, 2008 1:35 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kazmir alone won't ever get you Braun, Markakis, Kemp, Colby Rasmus or Josh Hamilton

You could get Ludwick, however. Kazmir had a crappy season, has been around a bit too much and had a lousy post-season. Heck, if Santana didn’t net anyone like those players, why the fuck would Kazmir?

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Nov 20, 2008 2:06 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Contract

Kazmir is under control for 3 more years if I recall correctly. At 9 mil per that’s a deal for a lot of teams.

I could be wrong though

by staplemaniac on Nov 20, 2008 2:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, you're right

Forgot about Santana’s contract. But Kazmir is more likely to get prospects than ml ready players, it’s rare to see a straight up trade with ML pitchers.

Mother---- him and John Wayne!

by MerryGoByeBye on Nov 20, 2008 2:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's a good question.

They do need a spot for Rasmus to play… And maybe they think he’s not as productive as his 2008 season and are selling high?

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 20, 2008 3:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe, these are the same idiots who tried to shop Edmonds in 2003

But I’d put Rasmus in left (who knows if he’ll be ready for the Majors in April), and use Schumaker as the 4th OF. We also have Mather who can give us quality PT against lefthanders, so we have all our bases covered in the OF.

If I were the Cards I’d try to shop Schumaker to a team that needs CF help, and if you can get a good return great. The guy they need to shop is Duncan: he’s 6th on the OF chart, he’s not really an outfielder, I don’t think he’ll be able to unseat Pujols at first, so I think they need to send him somewhere where a DH or 1B is needed (Seattle?).

Even if we don’t get Furcal, Hudson, or some other big contributor for the middle infield, the Cardinals still have a ton of firepower in their lineup (Rasmus, Glaus, Pujols, Ludwick, Ankiel), and are a potentially a fantastic defensive team depending on how they resolve the middle infield. At this moment I really like their chances to reach the postseason if there aren’t any catastrophic injuries.

Furcal

by JI on Nov 20, 2008 3:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Apparently not good
On August 2, it was reported that Duncan would miss the rest of the 2008 season after having surgery to address a herniated cervical disk in his neck. His career is also in jeopardy. The injury is very similar to the one that forced former Cardinal Larry Walker into retirement.

Furcal

by JI on Nov 21, 2008 2:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Can we please up the intelligence level in some of these comments?

Feel free to disagree with everything, just please explain WHY you disagree and provide a well-reasoned explanation.

And watch the language. Thanks.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 20, 2008 3:08 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

all right

What makes you think that there are teams that are dumb? Beyond your contention that tRA is superior to ERA, when in reality they are different, teams know a hell of a lot about the players in the league.

A team considering Kazmir will have information beginning in high school most likely. They’ll have their own scouting reports before the draft, another if he went to college, if he was ever an opponent and if he is a possible trade target. They’re also incestuous and confer among one another so a NL team may talk to a counterpart in Boston. Scouts use their own radar guns, note player make-up, evaluate and record mechanics. All along the way he’ll be videotaped.

With pitchfx there is a lot of information on pitch sequencing, type and velocity.

They’ll have a whole set of statistical evaluations that they use and probably have intimate experience with their failings including an understanding of the variable quality of the raw data that it is based on. For instance it sounds good to say that “velocity” is factored in to some calculation, but in reality it is a guy of unknown skill level and unknown comparability to his fellow workers guessing whether to log a hit in a few crude categories.

by ol Pete on Nov 20, 2008 10:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dumb is relative

But when Ken Griffey still gets trotted out to CF, Barry Zito earns twice as much as he’s worth, the Mariners do everything they did under Bill Bavasi, managers vote Michael Young a Gold Glove, Carlos Lee signs for $18MM per year, and the Royals think Mike Jacobs is an upgrade… well, those are just some of many examples of teams making less than optimal decisions. There are clearly some teams who get it, and use a full combination of scouting and optimized data analysis. And there are some who just don’t, yet.

I’m not even arguing that the Rays need to find a dumb team to trade with. If they can trade Kazmir for exactly what he’s worth, but in a right fielder’s form instead of a pitcher’s form, it’s a big improvement to the team.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 21, 2008 10:02 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One mistake:
Dodgers – They have a logjam in the outfield, leaving Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier as tradeable pieces. I prefer Ethier, who has OBP skills in addition to right-handed power.

Ethier is a lefty.

Yesterday's Pants
A blog-thingy about the Mariners and stuff.

by BrettJMiller on Nov 21, 2008 8:51 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks.

Changed.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 21, 2008 9:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll just say as a Dodger fan

We don’t have a logjam in the OF, we actually need another OF’er. We have Ethier/Kemp and then two guys who shouldn’t start (Pierre/Jones). Not that I think your trade is unfair but I just don’t really see the point. We’d be filling one hole while creating another. Also, Ethier still has 4 years of team control left, and he’ll probably be making less than 9M for 3 of those years.

Fair trade in a vacuum, but I don’t really see the point for the Dodgers.

by Brendan Scolari on Nov 21, 2008 9:15 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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