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Surprise Surprise! Matt Holliday Traded to Oakland

According to reports...

Athletics acquire Matt Holliday.

Rockies acquire Greg Smith, Carlos Gonzalez, Huston Street.

For the Rockies, this deal hinges almost entirely on Gonzalez. Smith has the potential to be a HUGE disaster in Colorado (well, he’d probably not be very good anywhere, but could be particularly bad in Coors Field). Street is a nice complementary player – a good player whose name value probably exceeds his actual contribution to the team. He should slot in nicely in the closer’s role, allowing Manny Corpas to remain the 8th inning guy. Street should be able to handle Coors Field, but questions abound about his long-term health, given his lowered velocity and poor results during the second half of the season. [NOTE: Reports speculate that Street may be moved to a third team.]

Gonzalez is the real prize for the Rockies. He struggled mightily with the As in 2008, hitting .242/.273/.361 with an 81/13 K/BB ratio. Gonzalez is clearly not ready for the majors, but he’s only 22 years old and has a solid minor league track record. Furthermore, from what I’ve read, scouts are very high on him.

His offensive questions aside, Gonzalez looks to be an excellent outfielder. He rated +5 in 528 innings in center field this year, and managed to be +5 in only 160 innings in right field as well. If his defense is even close to that good, he won’t need to put up monster offensive numbers to be valuable. Paired with Dexter Fowler in the spacious Coors outfield, Gonzalez may have a tremendous amount of value in his defense alone

If you are optimistic, you can rightly claim that while Gonzalez’s minor league statistics aren’t overwhelming, they are pretty good, and he was generally young for his level. That, coupled with glowing scouting reports, bodes well. If you are pessimistic you can claim that he is another example of an overhyped prospect with tools but no plate discipline, who’s running out of chances to make good on his promise. Gonzalez is still young enough to have time to improve, but that improvement had better come soon.

As for Oakland, this may seem to be uncharacteristic for them – giving up prospects for a one-year rental?

Star-divide

To be sure, they aren’t getting fooled by Holliday’s home/road splits – they know what kind of hitter Holliday would be in Oakland: namely, somewhere around .300/.370/.500 (perhaps that slugging estimate is rather high). He’s also a solid defender in left field. Overall, RJ and I calculated Holliday to be worth approximately three wins over the plethora of candidates who might have otherwise played left field in 2009 (Gonzalez, Rajai Davis, Chris Denorfia, Aaron Cunningham). Dave Cameron calculated Holliday to be worth approximately 4 wins above replacement, which jives perfectly with our calculation (assuming Oakland’s other options would’ve amounted to about one win above replacement, mostly due to defensive prowess).

The question becomes: does Billy Beane think the Athletics are close enough to contention that three-four wins matters that much? The answer, apparently, is yes. Upon examination, it’s not too difficult to see why: namely, the Angels appear poised for a rather dramatic collapse, especially if they fail to re-sign Teixeira (and, to a far lesser extent, Francisco Rodriguez). Seattle is not going to compete, and while Texas may surprise some people, they’re unlikely to win 90 games. Thus, the division is there for the taking – if the Athletics can build a 90-win club, they may very well be good enough to win the west.

Furthermore, the Athletics dealt from a position of strength. They won’t miss Smith – he’s simply not that good, and probably wasn’t one their five or six best starters right now. They are likely to be less optimistic about Gonzalez than more scouting-oriented teams (although they certainly recognize his potential – they traded for him in the first place). However, they have an abundance of talented outfielders, with Ryan Sweeney, Rajai Davis (don’t laugh, his defense is pretty good), Travis Buck, Aaron Cunningham, and to a lesser extent Chris Denorfia and Matt Murton vying for playing time. Furthermore, while Street is a good pitcher (when healthy), the Athletics have an excellent bullpen without Huston, featuring Brad Ziegler, Joey Devine, Santiago Casilla, and Andrew Brown.

The question remains: to what end was this deal made? Simply making this deal because it’s there is not a great reason to trade Huston Street and Carlos Gonzalez. Yes, the As probably won’t miss either, but those players probably had a fair amount of trade value. Why blow it for one year of Matt Holliday?

The answer, I think, is that Billy Beane isn’t done. I don’t think the addition of Matt Holliday makes the 2009 Athletics into a 90-win team. However, it does put them three-four wins closer. Their third-order Pythagorean record from 2008 was 79-83 – and that’s including about three months where they were basically auditioning people for 2009. If you assume that the Athletics were probably an ~83 win team before this trade (thanks to infusion of young talent and actually trying to win in 2009), adding Holliday takes them to 86-87 wins. A few more moves – or one large move (I’m looking at you, Mr. Furcal), could conceivably take them to the 90-win threshold, which should be enough to be competitive in a weak division.

This trade makes some sense for Colorado, although it was a big mistake for them to get Greg Smith (and I personally would’ve asked for someone besides Huston Street, too). It hinges on Carlos Gonzalez’s offensive development and, to a lesser extent, Huston Street’s health (or the player(s) they receive for him in a separate trade).

This trade makes a lot of sense for Oakland if they make corresponding moves to improve by another 3-4 wins. If Beane can add those wins without sacrificing more of his team’s long-term prospects, the Athletics could win the AL West in 2009 and still be excellent in 2010 and beyond.

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Agreed

Great post, Beane got a great hitter without giving up any of his top pitchers…will be interesting who else will he add

by viktor06 on Nov 11, 2008 6:10 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

About the A's record last year,,,

people seem to forget that we had Rich Harden throwing lights out for us for a little while (79 innings or something like that), Duke having an unsustainable year (though he is good), and Blanton throwing for us as well. Once we traded them, we went downhill FAST. While I know we weren’t that bad, and I still think we projected to be .500 without Holliday, I’m wondering how many wins the players we traded away added to our win total.

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 11, 2008 9:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Quick and dirty

Using Justin’s stats:

Blanton: 1.9 (OAK only)
Harden: 2.4 (OAK only)
Street: 1.2
Gonzo: 0.5
Smith: 1.73
——
Total: 7.73

by R.J. Anderson on Nov 11, 2008 9:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

by that, i'm going to estimate that the second half team we saw out of the A's last year

wasn’t a 79 win team, but probably more like a 76ish win team. Of course, we have more experience and now a brand new slugger, so I could see a mid 80’s win total right now, but I feel like we’re going to need one or two other pieces to be legit.

'That's something we do...thirteen hits and not score'-Terrence Long

by DyeLongJustice on Nov 11, 2008 10:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In the second half...

The A’s weren’t trying to win, at all. I imagine that if they were going all-out in the second half, they could’ve added a few more wins.

But I generally agree with you, that with Matt Holliday they are somewhere around an 85-win team. I’d think that they’d have to add 3-4, perhaps 5, more wins before they could really consider themselves contenders in 09.

by Peter Bendix on Nov 11, 2008 11:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Endy Chavez, Ryan Langerhans, and Cesary Izturis

(j/k)

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 11, 2008 12:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Once again beane sold high

God the guy is a genius and an even better salesman. I personally don’t see hudson or gonzalez doing any better with the rockies. Smith is a joke at this point with Colorado. Looks more like the Rockies wanted to get something for Holliday instead of the couple of draft picks when he would have left the rockies next year.

This makes the A’s much better with the bats which have definitely gone silent in recent years. If they add giambi at a good price they could get much better next year but I still don’t see them challenging the Angels.

A ball player's got to be kept hungry to become a big-leaguer. That's why no boy from a rich family ever made the big leagues. ~Joe DiMaggio, quoted in New York Times, 30 April 1961

by kdog on Nov 11, 2008 1:59 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't love this trade. Seems pretty even to me.

One possibility that I don’t think is getting enough press is that Beane could very well flip Holliday during this off-season. The package the Cardinals were rumored to offer for Holliday was Ludwick, Schumaker, and Boggs (a nice pitching prospect). That’s light-years above what the A’s gave up. Heck Ludwick for Holliday straight up might even be a good deal for the A’s, given Ludwick’s contract status.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 11, 2008 2:44 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good point on Ludwick's contract

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 11, 2008 3:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Have to disagree with you about Ludwick.

Maybe I’m biased from seeing him with the Indians, but I just don’t buy that the guy is really that good. And while Ludwick is indeed under contract for awhile, he’s also 29 and not a particularly good defender. Gonzalez looks like he’s a fantastic defender, and has potential with the bat, considering he’s only 22.

I totally agree that Boggs > Smith, but I think Gonzalez is enough better than Ludwick as to make it worthwhile for the Rockies to take the As trade (although still, couldn’t they have gotten ANYONE better than Smith?)

by Peter Bendix on Nov 11, 2008 4:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Peter's crappy pitcher list:

1. Greg Smith
2. Greg Smith
3. Greg Smith
4. ?
5. ?

Who else, big guy?

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 11, 2008 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Jeremy Sowers.

I loathe Jeremy Sowers.

by Peter Bendix on Nov 11, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Also, I believe Dave Cameron was calling Holliday a +4 win player comared to AVERAGE

Not replacement-level. So that’s more like +6 WAR. I’d put him between +5 and +6.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 11, 2008 2:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

That's what I said as well

My CRAP projections spit out him being at least as valuble as Teixeira next year.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 11, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

or even valuable

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 11, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

about right.

probably a bit less. especially considering throwing arm.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 11, 2008 5:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess I didn't take arm ratings into account

it also depends juset how good Teixeira is at first. I have him as good, but only in that “holy sh-t” range of fielding a la Pujols this year.

Now that I re-do my projections with some regression, I guess I do have Teix at 5.8 WAR next year, and Holiday at 5.6 (without OF arms). So Teix is better.. Still, I was a bit suprised that Holliday was anywhere near that good, and I bet a lot of people would be.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 11, 2008 11:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

When they're that close, it's not worth differentiating.

Sean’s projection has Tex at +6 runs at 1B…

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Nov 11, 2008 11:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, I checked it out

btw, I just got ripped by mgl for suggesting that Holliday was anywhere near 6 WAR. He says 4.

He’s obviously smarter than me, but I have to admit that I don’t follow his reasoning, so I laid out how I got to ~6 WAR to see if he’d explain it real slow for me.

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 11, 2008 11:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My take

Beane wants to make some moves. Either he’s trying to pull off a big trade or sign a free agent who won’t talk to a 76 win team with a roster of young unknown players. He doesn’t want to give up Anderson or Cahill in trades, but they were the price of admission to the big time talent discussions. He wanted to give up Street, one of their fringy pitchers (Smith was the optimal choice), and and outfielder, mostly because the A’s have about 6 OFers around for next season and no pressing need for Street in the bullpen, but noone was biting except Colorado. Now he has a big juicy name that gets him a seat at the table for a whole host of discussions, free agent and trade. He either can make that big deal for the players he really wants, sign a free agent to get him close the the ripe-for-collapse Angels, or ride out the season with a puncher’s chance at the Angels and two extra draft picks in 2010. Either way he feels like he’s in the driver’s seat, and that’s where he likes to be. Passivity is just not in his character.

by MrIncognito on Nov 11, 2008 3:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Interesting.

I agree with everything you said, except the idea about getting a seat at the table with free agents. Money talks, and with 99% of free agents, the highest bid wins, regardless of how good/bad the team is.

However, I totally agree with everything else you said – BB is now in the driver’s seat, and he got there by dealing from a position of strength (outfield) and selling high on Street and Smith.

by Peter Bendix on Nov 11, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If there’s anything we learned from A-Rod, it’s that a quarter billion dollars on a losing team still makes for an unhappy player.

by MrIncognito on Nov 11, 2008 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I looked at the A's a few days ago

and projected the roster at about 82 wins. The Holliday deal ups that by a LOT— to about 86, even after you account for losing Street.

What’s more, there are multiple easily filled holes on the roster. #5 starter, SS and 1B are all at 10 runs below average. If the A’s use their payroll surplus to sign Furcal and Derek Lowe and make a trade for a decent 3B prospect, allowing Eric Chavez to slide over to first (which presumably will stress his shoulder less), they could up that projection to 92 wins without a whole lot of trouble.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Nov 11, 2008 6:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

They need to add 5-6 more OFs to the system, I think

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 11, 2008 11:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They'll be through all those guys by June

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 11, 2008 11:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I knew the As had a glut of outfielders,

But I didn’t realize they had quite so many until I did some research for this article. Sweeney, Davis, Cunningham, Denorfia, Cust (kinda), Murton. Wow! Even an outfield of Sweeney, Davis/Cunningham, and Holliday (which I suspect is what the As will go with) is going to be AWESOME defensively, and could be solid offensively, too.

by Peter Bendix on Nov 12, 2008 10:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It will be difficult for them to sign Furcal OR Lowe,

Let alone both. I agree that they are an approximately-86-win team right now, and thus could use a few wins to get into real contention in 09.

They may be able to get Furcal, who will be a huge help. Even without a big-time move, however, they could improve internally and on the margins and get to 89-90 wins.

by Peter Bendix on Nov 12, 2008 10:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Furcal is going to get overpaid

didn’t he turn down 2/$30M from the Dodgers?

OMG Banny. FWIW I am only crdtng u w/3 runs allwd bc of DDJ OMFG

by devil_fingers on Nov 12, 2008 10:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, he did.

If its more than 2 years with option for 3rd, I hope the A’s turn it down.

This.

by Blicks on Nov 12, 2008 8:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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