Who's Responsible for the Success of the 2008 Tampa Bay Rays?
by Peter Bendix on Oct 16, 2008 5:00 AM EDT
Email
Print
No. This is very, very wrong.
Of the 25 men on the Rays ALCS roster, exactly four were selected with the team’s first round picks: David Price, BJ Upton, Evan Longoria, and Rocco Baldelli.
Really, only Longoria and Upton have contributed to the 2008 Rays. So the Rays’s consistently high draft picks have yielded exactly TWO members of the 2008 title-contending team. Yes, those players are quite good, but still, they are only two players.
So where did the other players come from? Well, Carl Crawford was a second round pick back in 1999. However, other than that, every single player on the Rays was either signed by Andrew Friedman, traded for by Andrew Friedman, or drafted in the 7th round or later.
These players were signed by Andrew Friedman:
Carlos Pena
Cliff Floyd
Akinori Iwamura
Trever Miller
These players were “stolen” in the draft:
James Shields (16th round)
Andy Sonnanstine (13th round)
Fernando Perez (7th round)
These players were acquired by Andrew Friedman via trades:
Matt Garza
Dioner Navarro
Grant Balfour
Jason Bartlett
Dan Wheeler
JP Howell
Edwin Jackson
Willy Aybar
Gabe Gross
Ben Zobrist
Chad Bradford
In exchange for these players, Andrew Friedman surrendered: Toby Hall, Mark Hendrickson, Jeff Ridgway, Delmon Young, Brendan Harris, Jason Pridie, Aubrey Huff, Ty Wigginton, Joey Gathright, Seth McClung.
Oh, and both Gross and Bradford were acquired for FREE.
In summary:
**Current Rays players who were drafted by Tampa in the first or second round: 5 (including David Price and Rocco Baldelli, neither of whom contributed much to the 2008 team)
**Current Rays players who were acquired via trade by Andrew Friedman: 11 (the starting catcher and shortstop, a starting right fielder, two starting pitchers, the three best pitchers in the bullpen, and an excellent back up infielder)
**Current Rays players who were signed by Andrew Friedman: 4 (two starters, a platoon DH and a reliever)
**Current Rays players who were drafted in the 7th round or later: 3 (two starting pitchers and a fourth outfielder)
46 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
thank you!!!
let me premise.. i’m a red sox fan. however, i’d classify myself as a “moneyball” baseball fan so i absolutely love seeing what friedman has done.
it makes me puke to listen to chip caray and buck martinez talk on the air about the turn around of the rays and credit joe maddon with the turn around of the organization. yes, martinez during either game 2 or 3 credited maddon for turning around the entire organization. no doubt maddon has played his part but without friedman maddon doesnt get to utilize those players.
not ONCE have i heard friedman’s name mentioned in a broadcast. shame on tbs for sending B squad analysts to do this series and shame on each of those idiots in the booth for not properly recognizing who, in fact, is responsible for the team we see on the field laying the wood to the defending champs.
As a Rays fan I paid close attention to who was receiving credit for the team's success.
I’ve actually heard more Chuck LaMar mentions than Friedman. What makes matters worse is that Friedman and Silverman have been at each of the Boston games (on camera) and yet it’s like the announcers don’t even know who they are.
Oh and forget about getting a sabermetrics mention, that would make the lovable Rays so robotic and cold.
by R.J. Anderson on Oct 16, 2008 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
The Rays cheat by using numbers.
Billy Beane is probably the ultimate information gatherer/devourer but I’m guessing Friedman is right up there.
by R.J. Anderson on Oct 16, 2008 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if Beane is still that far ahead of everyone else at this point.
Is he still the best? I’m not so sure.
J.K.L.
by Aaron Campeau on Oct 16, 2008 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
It's pretty impossible to tell, obviously.
I just wonder if there’s a “mystique” factor involved with Beane.
J.K.L.
by Aaron Campeau on Oct 16, 2008 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Rays success
Great post. I would imagine that Joe Maddon would have been in on the selections process. The front office guys are more of a co-operative group relying on a mangement team process and that is reflected in the choice of players. No prima donna stars in the mix. ANd about the TBS , I don’t thnk they respected the Rays or expected them to make it past 4 games. They didn’t do their homework before coming to the games. They didn’t know what city they were in, they didn’t know the players names (C.J Howell?, Justin Upton?). It was pretty pathetic during the AlDS and improved in the ALCS
by Harold From St Pete on Oct 16, 2008 9:20 AM EDT reply actions
So glad to hear others comment :)
TBS obviously did not expect the Rays to win. Neither did anyone all year. A reporter made the comment a couple of days ago that the Rays going to the World Series would not be good for TV viewership! He also stated that no one even knows our players names! I emailed and let him know that everyone has had all year to learn their names. They were, after all, on top most of the season. They must have fully expected and hoped for them to fall. TBS has definite issues though; during game one, we had to listen to them say things like ‘experience over exuberance’ and talk about our ‘dingy dome.’ They also commented that the Rays getting as far as they did was directly related to Upton and Longoria. I love both Longoria and Upton, but our team was a TEAM. Everyone who came to the plate this year helped to get the Rays to where they are at. We had wins where Gabe Gross was the star, Dionner Navarro, Perez, Hinske, and on and on. I would like to see the MLB allow one reporter from each team to do the playoffs. That was it is fair and more personal. It was definitely not fair for Rays fans to hear TBS learn about us ‘on the fly.’
On another note, is anyone else torked that MLB is postponing the possible game 6, for thirty minutes, a Obama commercial? What in the world? Please email MLB and let them know what you think of that!
A small correction
the ‘Game 6" that Obama’s ad would push back is during the World Series. I truly believe that is wrong for any candidate to have enough power (ie money) to delay the World Series. We should all let the Commissioner know how we feel about this before it happens. Or, let the other advertisers know that we will miss their pregame commercials because we won’t turn the game on until the first pitch…. That should change some things.
That's capitalism.
They got it to run on CBS and NBC first, and Fox wanted in on the action. They could have just as easily ran the WS instead. It’s not like the Obama people forced anyone’s hand. ABC didn’t bite (at least the last time I read anything about it).
It's hard to convince people to let you eat them if you're an asshole. - Thingray
Everyone who came to the plate this year helped to get the Rays to where they are at
Except Michel Hernandez. I’m still amazed he’s found his way onto a major league post-season roster over John Jaso. Hooray for experience in the minors, or something.
by R.J. Anderson on Oct 16, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
and that is indicative of a well built team
omar minaya should take a page.
the red sox got contributions from sean casey and alex cora in select duty and they were quite productive in those instances.
but to see how well friedman has put together a group of players in which anyone wearing a uniform has at least 1 skill that can impact that game is pretty remarkable.
this is a really nice breakdown
especially for me, somebody who was starting to get lulled into just that kind of dangerous over-simplification. obviously smart drafting has been a part of the success. it goes to show that getting high draft picks merely provides one avenue of potential, and it takes a solid management approach to capitalize on this as part of the overall strategy.
i have read during the year from more than one expert or analyst that the red sox represented the most “solid top to bottom” team, or something like that. obviously the rays are that team.
I see how it is
just because I said it in the last thread you gotta pick on me. wtf!!?!?
haha, just kidding. Interesting post and you make your point.
One thing to defend what I said: Some of those trades they made sure did help them, was the value of those trade chips high because of all their high draft picks? They don’t get garza and bartlett without having a high pick to trade, right? Even though their current roster doesnt boast a crazy amount of top picks doesnt completely mean I’m completely wrong because those high picks indirectly did help them aquire talent.
That however, is really stretching the argument. In the end, you’re the one who’s right, I’ll admit I made a ton of assumptions on where their players came from because I thought Navarro, Howell, Iwamura, and Jackson all came from their farm system. I can’t really blame myself, because it’s pretty much natural to assume what I did. And if you think this thinking was “nonsense” you can’t tell me you didn’t think the same thing at one point or another, but as usual research into an opinion is always the correct course of action.
I honestly don’t really regret being wrong here either and am happy to admit I’m a dumba$s. Knowing the names Crawford, Upton, Sheilds, Kazmir, and Garza are really the biggest reason I thought this team had a chance, and they would be nowhere without their high picks (crawford/upton), so it did eventually sort of work out the way I thought…..but not really.
two things:
crawford wasnt a top pick (hmmm….my argument gets less and less good. that means….), and it wasnt the “last” thread I’ll say the Reds thread instead…Fred.
Thanks for the comment.
Actually, your post got me thinking, but this post was written in direct response to a friend of mine, who claimed that the Rays success was “inevitable.” So although your post gave me the original idea, this was not intended to directly refute you.
Your point about Delmon Young being used to acquire Garza and Bartlett is also very well taken – Garza and Bartlett are the direct result of another of their high draft picks.
And not realizing where the Rays players came from doesn’t make you dumb, far from it. Interviewing Chuck LaMar like he was a) still the GM and b) totally responsible for their success, well, that might make you pretty dumb…
by Peter Bendix on Oct 17, 2008 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
fair enough
I hear ya, it wasnt directly to refute me, even if it were it would be no big deal. It’s time someone called out this misconception and gave credit to Friedman for cleaning up lamar’s mess. but as usual it’s a mix of good FA signings, good draft/development, and good trades. Chuck Lamar did more to hurt the organization by trading bobby abreu and dimitri young for kevin stocker and mike kelly respectfully.
so, when did TBS interview him, I remember a guy getting interviewed either last night or the night before, but I wasnt paying attention to who it was or the interview. The fact that he’s getting any credit is borderline pathetic and pretty much what I would expect from the media.
Ehhhhhh
The team’s two most valuable chips were picked in the first 3 picks of the draft. Another top 3 pick provided the team with Garza and Bartlett. I haven’t done the exact math but I’m pretty sure that more than half of the team’s value above average is tied up in those four (really three, since Bartlett sucks) players.
I mean, the team has only had 11 seasons of play. Exactly how many first round picks are supposed to show up on the roster? A few of them are going to bust out regardless of what you do. Five of them are on the roster, either in person or in the form of direct trade collateral. The very early picks are so far back that they’ve moved on by now. It’s basically ludicrous to suggest that any greater proportion of the team’s roster could be expected to be derived from first round picks.
It’s wrong to not give Friedman credit for doing very good things, but to suggest that the team hasn’t benefited inestimably from sucking ass for ten years is every bit as reprehensible as suggesting the opposite. It’s not “BS.” When several of your highest profile stars are cream-puff talent that a five-year old could scout successfully, people tend to conclude that your success is largely due to high draft picks.
I don’t understand this. The system is working (for once), yet people feel obliged to come up with some explanation other than that the system is working.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 17, 2008 3:14 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The point is that there are many other factors at play.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that the Rays haven’t benefited from their early picks, but it’s not the main reason they’re where they are today.
J.K.L.
by Aaron Campeau on Oct 17, 2008 3:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I totally agree.
Of course the Rays are benefiting from their top picks. But my basic point was that without a bunch of shrewd moves by Andrew Friedman, this team wouldn’t be in the ALCS, even with the high picks they’ve had.
by Peter Bendix on Oct 17, 2008 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
OK
It’s almost tautological to say that a small-market team is not going to make the ALCS without a bunch of shrewd moves. You have to get talent somehow, and “somehow” is not by bringing in high-priced stars. So… it’s either by drafting well, or trading well, or, in practice, both.
In fact, I’d go so far as to say that pretty much any playoff team will be managed by a “shrewd” person. There are more than enough opportunities for GMs to screw up their teams for anyone who is not pretty good to fail, no matter how large his payroll or generous his draft spot is.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Delmon as a top pick is a good point
But had they sat on him instead of trading him, they would have been much worse this year, and likely in the future.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Oct 18, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Delmon Young
Delmon Young is going to be a bad player his whole career. He isn’t going to get better than he is now.
does tbs and craig sager know...
the chuck lamar is no longer the gm of the rays?
i’m confused.
i would THINK that if you wanted to run story after story about the success of a team you’d interview the current gm. not the guy scouting for another team.
i dunno… i’m not a journalist so i’m no expert
I don't know what was more incredible
The comeback or that interview.
by Peter Bendix on Oct 17, 2008 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Tampa Bay Rays Success
Tampa will have success now and in the future. Their team is stockpiled with young talent and they have a good general manager and manager. To perfect their roster though, they will have to sign 1 or 2 players that are free agents. I think they should sign Derek Lowe to give their starting pitching depth. Edwin Jackson is kind of unreliable so signing Derek Lowe would be great. They should also sign another corner infielder, either Rich Aurilia or Hank Blalock. They will provide some power off the bench and a replacment in a pinch. Also Rich Aurilia can play shortstop if needed.
A little lady I call luck.
Remember when we were kids and we mixed sodas together and called them "suicides"? It was OK though, because Dr. Pepper was always there.
Except they would still be an above .500 team.
Division winning? Most likely not, however if they won 87 instead of 97 I’m pretty sure everyone would say it was a successful season.
by R.J. Anderson on Oct 18, 2008 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes.
But not as successful. Remember, results are all that matter?
Remember when we were kids and we mixed sodas together and called them "suicides"? It was OK though, because Dr. Pepper was always there.
Using BaseRuns, here's the adjusted W-L of the top four teams
1. Boston 101.5
2. Tampa 96.1
3. Chicago (N) 95.8
4. Toronto 91.8
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/season-in-review-toronto-blue-jays/
So the Rays won one more game than they should’ve and Boston lost quite a few more than they should’ve. I would say the two sides injuries equal out.
by R.J. Anderson on Oct 18, 2008 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
As for the Rays processes
They’re quite good, as are Boston’s. If both teams remain static the Sox would most likely win the division next year, but otherwise the Rays were good and on the receiving end of some Boston bad luck.
by R.J. Anderson on Oct 18, 2008 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
How do they equal out?
It cost us way more wins than you.
Remember when we were kids and we mixed sodas together and called them "suicides"? It was OK though, because Dr. Pepper was always there.
that also does not account for bullpen leverage
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Oct 19, 2008 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Follow us on Twitter!
BTB: @BtBScore
Justin: @justinbopp
Satchel: @SatchelPrice
J-Doug: @RationalPastime
Josh: @garik16
Julian: @giantsnirvana
Bill: @BillPetti
Lucas: @DBITLefty
Jeff: @jeffwzimmerman
Lewis: @LewsOnFirst
