Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Champions League Preview with Jimmy Conrad

Ray Schalk in Cooperstown

Before I get into today's post, I'd like to link you up to Baseball Digest Daily so you can check out the first edition of The Baseball Herald, BDD's new online monthly magazine. I have a few articles in there you may have read already, as well as something new, so check it out if you'd like. You can download it in PDF format from the main page.

I was browsing around Baseball Almanac, looking up Hall of Fame catchers (baseball diehards lead sad lives), when I came across the name Ray Schalk.  I had a rudimentary knowledge of Schalk's career, but was surprised to see he was a HOFer, particularly when I saw his stat line (.253/.340/.316).  I am not going to go so far as to calculate secavg, WARP3, etc for him, and I do acknowledge he played part of his career during the Dead Ball Era, but the Dead Ball Era limited power, not average.  It seems to me that he got into the Hall mostly through defense, speed, and the fact that the Veterans Committee (which elected him in 1955) had fond memories of Schalk.  Most of the other catchers seem deserving, but I wanted to know what you guys though about him being in the Hall?

What do I think of Ray Schalk's inclusion in the Hall of Fame? Let's take a look using a table:

Schalk is second to last in Career WARP3, second to last in JAWS, and last in Peak WARP. His FRAA is very good, at +97 for his career, but that is not the sort of thing that should get you into the
Hall of Fame by itself. Granted, he was a Veteran's Committee mistake in the middle of the century (and there were plenty of those). You know what is good about having Ray Schalk in the Hall of Fame though? Thanks to his career averages and values being so low, it helps negate the massive totals of players like Johnny Bench, and keeps the requirements for making the Hall of Fame go down slightly. Some would say this makes it too easy to get into the Hall, but that is not true. Let's think about it intelligently for a second; if Johnny Bench and Gary Carter are where you draw the line, you'll end up with a handful (or less) of players at each position.

People seem to think adding players like Frank Thomas, Will Clark, Jeff Bagwell, Bert Blyleven, and Ryne Sandberg will dilute the talent in the Hall of Fame and make it easier to get in for the future. In all honesty we can blame history rather than the future for letting players like Ray Schalk in, as well as others like Johnny Evers (68.0 Career WARP3) and George Kelly (50.6 Career WARP3). People also say using JAWS as a method to determine worth will dilute the talent pool further in the Hall, but how is that so? It relies on a number system that you have to match up with, and if your numbers are not at the point where your inclusion would help bring up the average that has been brought down by major gaffes in the past then you shouldn't be in. Everyone I advocate for the Hall here has numbers that would improve the value of the average Hall of Famer. It just amazes me when some people don't think Jeff Bagwell and others are first ballot Hall of Famers when they have JAWS scores or Peak WARP scores that are larger than many Cooperstown inductees entire career value. For example, Jeff Bagwell has a Peak WARP of 52.9, higher than George Kelly's career value. He also has a JAWS score of 89.2, which is higher than all but 6 of the catchers entire career value listed above. I understand it is a different position. Here's something else; his Career WARP3 is 125.5, directly behind demi-god Johnny Bench as you can see above. The fact that some people have said and continue to say that Bagwell isn't deserving of first ballot inclusion because he doesn't have 500 homeruns or 3,000 hits makes me want to slam my head against a wall. If his value is higher without reaching those plateaus, then who cares? That shows you how meaningless this milestone stuff is sometimes. I didn't mean to get off on a rant here, but I needed an excuse to address some concerns I had.

I'll be back tomorrow or later today with updated versions of the NRAA statistic. James Click was gracious enough to lend me some of his thoughts and time, which I appreciate.

Comment 4 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

My own 2 cents...
To determine Hall of fame worthiness, ferchrissakes don't compare players to George Kelly. Using THAT lithmus test, we'll be enshrining Geronimo Berroa before you know it.
Schalk is among the very worst HOF selections (and there have been some BAD ones.). Let's acknowledge the mistake and move on.
But we ought not compound the problem be shoving the Will Clarks of the world into the Hall. Clark was a wonderful player for a time, but like Garvey and Mattingly, he failed to close the deal.
Bagwell, Palmeiro, Thomas (especially Thomas) and McGriff are all more qualified 1B candidates from the same era.

by Lance Richardson on Jul 9, 2005 7:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Will Clark...
Will Clark
WARP3: 101.7
PEAK: 50.3
JAWS: 76.0

Average HOF 1B:
WARP3: 98.2
PEAK: 43.1
JAWS: 70.7

Clark is better than the average Hall of Fame First Baseman.  Why not Will Clark?

by Richard Wade on Jul 9, 2005 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also
Will Clark is not from the same era as Palmeiro, Thomas, and Bagwell. He started in the mid 80's, and his numbers for the pre-power era don't look impressive now, but he was an absolute monster during his peak, and probably a better candidate for Cooperstown than Rafael Palmeiro in all honesty.
"I don't set the rosters, I just make fun of the guy who does" - Rob Neyer

by Marc Normandin on Jul 10, 2005 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kelly
I would never directly compare and use George Kelly as the test. I specifically stated that unless a players numbers bring up the average of the Hall of Fame standard statistically, I don't want to let them in. I was just showing how much more qualified Bagwell was than Kelly, by comparing his JAWS score to Kelly's WARP...normally you'd expect the WARP of a HoF player to be higher than all but the superhuman players JAWS.
"I don't set the rosters, I just make fun of the guy who does" - Rob Neyer

by Marc Normandin on Jul 10, 2005 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

We use numbers and stuff.
Community Guidelines
Why be a member?

Follow us on Facebook!

Follow us on Twitter!

SaberGraphics

Yahoo_full_count

MLB Daily Dish

Get the latest MLB Trade Rumors, Transactions, and News at MLB Daily Dish!


Managing Editor:

Jbopp-kc_small Justin Bopp

Columnists:

Adam_small adarowski

Dme_small Satchel Price

Closeup4_small J-Doug

Carlosicon_small Julian Levine

Billy_and_daddy_4th_of_july_small Bill Petti

Featuring:

Dayton_small Jeff Zimmerman

12475953_small Jacob Peterson

Recent_pic_pg_small Patrick Gordon

Btbpro_small Dave Gershman

Me_small Bryan Grosnick

229331_10150183361996591_674441590_6760167_6637860_n3_small Lewie Pollis

Img_3830_small David Fung

30472_1481067225243_1190689185_1381415_997334_n_small Glenn DuPaul

1mnvxku7_small joshuaworn

Set_small MattFilippi18

Photo0011_small Nathaniel Stoltz